Freethought & Rationalism Archive

DarkDruid · 04-27-2002, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Posted by Yellow3
Hello hello. You know, even the most 'primitive' (by our standards) cultures need to use digging sticks to get down far enough to get at potatoes. Compared to the tough hands of baboons, which are designed to dig up roots bare-handed, our own hands are very soft. By your criteria we are evidently not supposed to be eating tubers.

As for our inability to track. . . have you ever heard of the !Kung? Best trackers on earth apparently, able to look at an animal's footprint and know what it is, where it was going, and how long ago it passed that way. We're very visual animals; if we track, it will be with our eyes. And we can be very damn good at it.

Speaking of the !Kung. . .

quote:
We can run, but not behind any prey.. but away from danger (adrenaline: fright, fight and flight).

!Kung kill their prey with small arrows, which requires them to be able to follow it for hours until it drops. They can and do do such a thing.

Hunters in Finland used their tracking and prowling abilities to follow Soviet soldiers during WWII. When they would fall asleep, the Finnish hunters would sneak up and slit their throats with a peice of bone. Entire platoons were wiped out this way. How much more primative can you get?

waxm · 04-27-2002, 02:09 PM

Dr- It is a simple fact that we cannot eat fresh meat without converting it into a pleasant and palatable form by various forms of cooking. ie. Boiling, Steaming, Stir Frying, Deep Frying, Smoking, Curing etc etc.

Wax- Wow! I can't believe what a "dr" will allow to pass as "fact" these days!

Man can not only eat raw meat, but drink blood to sustain himself.
It actually tastes very good after one has been deprived of food and water for a few days (ask a Ranger).
Man is now, will likely always be, and always has been, a predator.
We hunt each other on a normal basis, as well as prey animals.

In fact, there is good evidence that it was only the increase of meat as a food source that provided the required protein for our superior brain growth and synoptic progression.
Domestication of prey animals is simply a replacement for hunting behaviour.
Yet we hunt even when we have no real need to based on food consumption.
Man is a killer Dr., like it or not.
You may chose to pretend otherwise, but don't try to fool the rest of us.

Free Thinkr · 04-28-2002, 01:35 PM

Quote:

For bodybuilders: Come to think of it, If a man were to ride a Lion, the lion won't make it to half a mile. While a Horse can take you five times that distance. A Elephant has more muscle mass than a pitiful hyena. The largest animals (Mountain Gorilla for example) are Herbivores. Its a Myth that Meat=Muscles. Vegetarian diet puts lesser strain on your Digestive System, Excretory systems and most importantly, your Heart (And your conscience that you are depriving the life of an animal for your plate), thus increasing your Stamina and Longevity (Bodybuilders don't live that long anyway!)

First of all, this is simply untrue. Bodybuilders do need to consume a large amount of protien daily. While this may be possible to do with whey or eggs, I don't see the point. Did you know that olympic weightlifters need the equivalent of 1 turkey's worth of protien every day?

Let me say that I am a little biased in the issue. I admit it, I bloody hate most vegetables. I probably always will. Also, I don't give a god damn about a cow. What's the difference between a cow and a carrot? The cow can feel pain? The cow has feelings? What? Either way, too bad for the cow. I like burgers, and man beats cow. Vegetarians idealize the world as if its some sort of ultra-happy place where all the animals get along or something. Its not, and I'm not going to spend a second of my time trying to ensure that it is. We may raise cows for the express purpose of eating them, but hey, at least we haven't made them extinct yet.

The AntiChris · 04-28-2002, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Free Thinkr:

I don't give a god damn about a cow. What's the difference between a cow and a carrot? The cow can feel pain? The cow has feelings? What? Either way, too bad for the cow.

Most people find animal cruelty repugnant. For this reason, most civilized nations have extensive laws protecting animals from malicious cruelty.

Do you support animal welfare legislation or do you think we're far too sentimental and should repeal these misguided laws and use animals in the same way we would use any other non-animal (mineral, vegetable) resource?

Chris

SmashingIdols · 04-28-2002, 07:28 PM

I think animal welfare is a good thing - and by the success of organizations like the Humane Society one can assume lots of people do from every walk of life. Cows can and do feel pain (as well as fear), so why not make things as nice as possible for them under the circumstances?

The bodybuilding statements are pretty funny:
1. Who says body builders are shorter lived than most other people? Nonsense.
2. In fact whey protien and egg white are highly prized in the body building community - as is evidenced by the dominance of these two products in virtually every bodybuilding fuel. Go read the ingredients of Pure Protein, or EAS (body for life).

Just .02 cents.

Free Thinkr · 04-28-2002, 08:48 PM

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should burn animals alive for sport or anything. I just don't see the point in denying ourselves delicious food for such a worthless endeavor. By the way, as for cows having fears -trust me, cows are unaware they're going to slaughter.

The AntiChris · 04-28-2002, 11:02 PM

Free Thinkr

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should burn animals alive for sport or anything.

You're just a big softy at heart!

Quote:

I just don't see the point in denying ourselves delicious food for such a worthless endeavor.

Not sure what you mean by "worthless endeavour"?

Quote:

By the way, as for cows having fears -trust me...

You must be a doctor!

Quote:

....cows are unaware they're going to slaughter.

Phew, that's ok then!

Chris

droolian · 04-28-2002, 11:29 PM

Free Thinkr: …By the way, as for cows having fears -trust me, cows are unaware they're going to slaughter.

I can’t imagine 9 billion animals per year being killed without a lot of cruelty and suffering going on. In Korea, dogs and cats are treated the way we treat cows and pigs.

Quote:

Eli Sanders Seattle Times staff reporter: In a statement released yesterday, IBP said it would take immediate action to address the concerns raised by the Humane Farming Association, specifically those violations caught on camera of the animals being dragged through the line while they're skinned alive.

More: With an animal still fighting for its life, the jobs at these stations become more difficult and more dangerous for employees, the Humane Farming Association said.

"Workers who attempt to skin and cut off the legs of live animals are often injured in the process," Spereyra said. Deputy Attorney General Bruce Clausen said his office will review the documents.

<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/html98/cows01m_20000601.html" target="_blank">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/local/html98/cows01m_20000601.html</a>

Warning, this site has pictures. <a href="http://www.ens-news.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html" target="_blank">http://www.ens-news.com/ens/jun2000/2000L-06-23g.html</a>

Videos or horror shows can be seen here <a href="http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/Slaughter/sentencedtodeathreport.htm" target="_blank">http://www.viva.org.uk/Viva!%20Campaigns/Slaughter/sentencedtodeathreport.htm</a>

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: droolian ]

Maverick · 04-29-2002, 06:07 AM

Since we have wandered off on the slaughterhouse tangent:

I will be doing an energy audit at a local slaughterhouse on Wednesday. I have been to this location several times. The actual killing seems pretty humane to me - a gun that shoots a rod through the brain. The cow drops immediately with hardly a quiver.

I will say that Kosher killing is just plan nasty. I would definitely consider Kosher killing cruel. It figures that it is done for religious reasons.

This particular plant handles mostly hamburger. The majority of the cows come from local dairy farms.

Anyone want me to look into anything particular on Wed?

Maverick the Omnivore

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]

The AntiChris · 04-29-2002, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Maverick:
Anyone want me to look into anything particular on Wed?

I picked up the following on an animal welfare site:

Quote:

Prior to being hung up by their back legs and bled to death, cattle are supposed to be rendered unconscious. This 'stunning' is usually done by a mechanical blow to the head. The procedure is terribly imprecise, and inadequate stunning is inevitable. The result of poor stunning is conscious animals hanging upside down, kicking and struggling, while a slaughterhouse worker makes another attempt to render them unconscious. Eventually, the
animals will be "stuck" in the throat with a knife, and blood will gush from their bodies whether or not they are unconscious.

I have no idea how accuarate a description this is, but it would be interesting know how it compares with your experiences.

Chris

04-29-2002, 06:07 AM	#19
Maverick Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 6,367	Since we have wandered off on the slaughterhouse tangent: I will be doing an energy audit at a local slaughterhouse on Wednesday. I have been to this location several times. The actual killing seems pretty humane to me - a gun that shoots a rod through the brain. The cow drops immediately with hardly a quiver. I will say that Kosher killing is just plan nasty. I would definitely consider Kosher killing cruel. It figures that it is done for religious reasons. This particular plant handles mostly hamburger. The majority of the cows come from local dairy farms. Anyone want me to look into anything particular on Wed? Maverick the Omnivore [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]</p>

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04-27-2002, 02:09 PM	#12
waxm Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: saint peter mn Posts: 18	Dr- It is a simple fact that we cannot eat fresh meat without converting it into a pleasant and palatable form by various forms of cooking. ie. Boiling, Steaming, Stir Frying, Deep Frying, Smoking, Curing etc etc. Wax- Wow! I can't believe what a "dr" will allow to pass as "fact" these days! Man can not only eat raw meat, but drink blood to sustain himself. It actually tastes very good after one has been deprived of food and water for a few days (ask a Ranger). Man is now, will likely always be, and always has been, a predator. We hunt each other on a normal basis, as well as prey animals. In fact, there is good evidence that it was only the increase of meat as a food source that provided the required protein for our superior brain growth and synoptic progression. Domestication of prey animals is simply a replacement for hunting behaviour. Yet we hunt even when we have no real need to based on food consumption. Man is a killer Dr., like it or not. You may chose to pretend otherwise, but don't try to fool the rest of us.

04-28-2002, 07:28 PM	#15
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	I think animal welfare is a good thing - and by the success of organizations like the Humane Society one can assume lots of people do from every walk of life. Cows can and do feel pain (as well as fear), so why not make things as nice as possible for them under the circumstances? The bodybuilding statements are pretty funny: 1. Who says body builders are shorter lived than most other people? Nonsense. 2. In fact whey protien and egg white are highly prized in the body building community - as is evidenced by the dominance of these two products in virtually every bodybuilding fuel. Go read the ingredients of Pure Protein, or EAS (body for life). Just .02 cents.

04-28-2002, 08:48 PM	#16
Free Thinkr Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 4,379	Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should burn animals alive for sport or anything. I just don't see the point in denying ourselves delicious food for such a worthless endeavor. By the way, as for cows having fears -trust me, cows are unaware they're going to slaughter.

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