Charles Darwin

Well, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy. So the study of metaphysics is, as you say, a philosophical issue. But a metaphysical claim is a truth claim. This is not a philosophical issue but a religious claim.

If you say you are an atheist; that you don't believe in God; that therefore you believe the origin of the universe and existence itself can be explained by some other means, then you are expressing a metaphysical or religious belief. Make sense?

Charles Darwin

I have a doctorate in a branch of physics (not cosmology). I am by no means an expert in cosmology, but I have a decent understanding at the popular level. Now a question for you which is highly relevant to this thread: Why are my questions meaningless?

Eudaimonist

That's a non sequitur. Nothing about truth claims being made on metaphysical issues implies that a religious claim is being made.

No, I would be expressing a non-religious belief on a metaphysical issue. The fact that someone such as yourself might posit a religious belief in response to that metaphysical issue does not mean that all other beliefs on that issue are thereby religious.

Charles Darwin

Good point. I'm not sure I can provide a hard and fast definition in an email post, but in rough and simple terms, it seems to me that fundamental beliefs about world are religious. Of course theism is an example, but isn't materialism also an example? Materialism says that matter and energy is all there is.

Can science explore, discover and analyze all phenomena? Are love, hate and consciousness just as amenable to scientific analysis as are bridges and rocks? Some people believe the answer is yes; that there is no spiritual realm. It seems to me that this is every bit as much a religious belief as the converse.

The point I'm trying to explore in this thread is that atheism (or perhaps strong atheism) -- the belief that there is no god -- carries with it, it seems to me, serious metaphysical implications. You cannot simply say you don't believe in God and that, oh by the way, you are free of religious beliefs. If you believe there is no God, then are you not very much committing yourself to some other fundamental beliefs about the world? I understand there may be folks who say, "Gee, I just don't know." I am not referring to those folks. I'm referring to folks who say they believe there is no God.

Eudaimonist

So religious does not mean "theistic" to you? If that is the case, you are using the word "religious" in an exceedingly odd way.

reprise

This is not the question you asked at the outset, but it's a much more concise question.

Religion is a system of beliefs, so it's perfectly possible for an atheist to take the position that deities do not and cannot possibly exist without adopting an alternative belief system.

Some atheists do have alternative metaphysical explanations for our existence, but those explanations are not necessarily ordered in any manner which would qualify them as being a "belief system". Some atheists - quite frankly - couldn't give a toss about the how and the why of our existence. The only essential criterion for being an atheist in not believing in deities. Not all religions are deist, so it's possible to be religious and atheist at the same time.

It seems like you want to create a few little boxes and force us all into one regardless of whether that box actually fits.

I get the feeling that you want one of us to say that Materialism and Naturalism (or whatever other -ism you want to use as an example) are based on faith, when they are not.

Faith is basing one's explanations and one predictions on something for which their is no evidence. There is no evidence for the existence of a supreme being acting alone, or a plethora of supreme beings acting either individually or in concert. None. At all. Faith involves trying to explain the unexplained by using the unsupportable.

You've been quick to ask the atheists here about their beliefs and to try to tell us what we must believe, while the only belief of your own that you've shared is that atheism must entail an alternative belief to that of theism. Would you care to share with us your views on why it must?

Charles Darwin

So all those guys are "religious" and you are free of religious belief. Sounds like you are using a convenient definition of religious belief. By your definition, then I have my answer to the question posed in this thread. But this simply leads to the obvious question: How do you define "religious belief." Why are metaphysical beliefs not religious beliefs? Why is the belief there is no god not religious but belief in God a religious belief?

RevDahlia

This definition is so broad as to be meaningless. For instance, according to you, my belief that the world is round would be religious.

I haven't circumnavigated the globe myself, so my belief is more of an assumption... but a very, very well-supported one.

I don't think "religion" is synonymous with "assumption".

Charles Darwin

Perhaps you can understand why I posted this thread originally in the CSS (church state separation) category. If you want to confine "religious beliefs" to theistic beliefs, then do you see how asymmetrical the CSS environment is? IOW, while theism is marginalized in the public square as "religious" all sorts of other belief systems, such as there is no god, reign free. But, in fact, those other beliefs are every bit as metaphysical and unproven. Just as religious in my book. So you have a situation where the public policy is not at all neutral, but you have the myth of neutrality.

crocodile deathroll

My Ten Commandments
Mine in italics

1
"You shall have no other gods but me"
"You shall have no other gods including me"


2
"You shall not take the name of your Lord in vain"
"You are permitted take the name of your Lord in vain, he/she can't hear you"


3
"You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy"
"Sunday is just another day"

4
"Honor your father and mother"
"Question your father and mother, as they like to bring up their kids a climate intelligent debate"


5
"You shall not kill"
"You shall not kill (unless you have lost all quality of life or it is self defense and that rules out capital punishment)"

6
"You shall not commit adultery"
"You shall commit adultery to spread your genetic material, but be careful"


7
"You shall not steal"
"You shall not steal and that also means stealing land from Australian Aboriginals and Native Americans as we as abducting their kids to convert them to Xtianity"


8
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"You have to work hard to discover the truth as it is not handed to you on a couple of tablets"


9
"You shall not covet your neighbor's goods. You shall not covet your neighbour's house. You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his bull, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's."

"It is OK to feel a little be envious of your neighbor's goods.

10
"It doesn't strictly have to be 10 of them"