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10-17-2002, 03:17 PM | #11 |
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Here is an interesting example of philosophical vagueness. The definition of philosopher list both realist and idealist as synonyms. Realist and idealist are listed as antonyms. Philosophy by definition is screwed up.
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10-18-2002, 05:52 PM | #12 | |
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10-24-2002, 10:55 AM | #13 | |
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Longbow:
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The reason for this is not hard to find. The meaning of non-tautological propositions lies in the fact that they assert something about the “nature of things”. Thus if P is a non-tautological proposition, it is true if the “nature of things” is this and false if it is that. Since language is fuzzy, for any statement of a proposition there are typically “states of affairs” such that it is unclear whether the proposition should be said to be true or false if that state of affairs obtains. But if one cannot give any description at all of a state of affairs in which the (alleged) proposition is true and another in which it is false, it doesn’t say anything at all about the “nature of things”, and therefore is not really a proposition at all. But Ockham’s Razor is a completely general statement about how to decide whether any particular state of affairs obtains. Therefore it cannot entail any assertion to the effect that any particular state of affairs does or does not obtain. That would be like a rule of evidence (in positive law) entailing a statement to the effect that a particular defendant is innocent or guilty. Since the rules of evidence are part of a methodology for deciding just such questions, it would be completely inappropriate for them to entail answers to such questions. The same sort of thing holds for Ockham’s Razor. Since it is a (partial) statement of a methodology for deciding questions about what state of affairs obtains, it cannot entail answers to any questions about what state of affairs obtains. In other words, it is not a proposition, nor does it entail any propositions. It is properly regarded as a principle of action which any rational being follows. Properly stated, it doesn’t even look like a proposition; it says something like “Don’t multiply entities unnecessarily” or in a more modern formulation, “Choose the simplest hypothesis consistent with the known facts.” These are no more propositions than “Close the door” is a proposition. I don’t understand why you are so resistant to this analysis. Once one accepts that it makes sense to speak of “valid principles of action” (or alternatively, “principles of rational action”) it opens the door to saying that moral principles are similarly not statements of propositions (and thus cannot be said to be true or false) but are valid principles of action. Thus the fact that they cannot be “proved” is natural and expected; after all, how would you go about “proving” Ockham’s Razor? And the fact that there is no such thing as a property of “goodness” or “ought-to-be-doneness” is no problem, since to say that an act is “right” is not to assert that it has some property. (Indeed, it is not to “assert” anything at all in the sense that a proposition does.) More generally, it allows one to say that there are objectively valid moral principles without being forced to claim that there is a mysterious “moral reality” about which they express true propositions. [ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: bd-from-kg ]</p> |
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10-24-2002, 12:56 PM | #14 | |||||
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It seems to me that such a statement as the latter, you have to be arguing, is not an assertion but more of the imperative formulation -- a command or recommendation. (Actually, a recommendation is really an assertion usually as well. But, it is clear that you do not think that the latter declarative statement has propositional content.) It is my contention that the real issue is philosophical vagueness, and we'll just have to see how this bears out. Quote:
The key to this is how you are handling the fuzziness -- what you thik it means. That is, the key issue is how you deal with teh existence of philosophical vagueness. You seem to have no problem dealing with it when it comes to empircal matters. But, if it comes up a priori, then you are rejecting the possibility of propositional content. Quote:
What would be inappropriate is for the idea that we cannot end up at A to be the basis for figuring out a method to find which box to end up at. This would beg the question. Certainly, it can go the other way -- the methodlogy can entail facts about the end result of applying it. And it certainly can do so without being "transparent" -- that is, without it being possible to analytically determine the outcome in advance. Nonetheless, I don't think this fact will slow you down much... Quote:
So, you have to show this. It sounds like your argument is that statements about philosophically vague ideas are not "analytic" and so must either be empirical or not have propositional content. Quote:
The reason I am so resistant to your approach is that I don't think it does make sense to talk about "rational principles of action". But, I do think that morality is just another a priori objective subject. So, the only reason a rational principle of action has any special significance is because it corresponds to some bonafide true proposition. Otherwise, it really is just a personal recommendation. I think you are trying to strike a balance of sorts. You are treating certain things kind of like personal recommendations, but insisting that they are stronger than just "You ought to try the lasagna." In short, I really think that a sentence like "The simplest model is the correct model," is indeed just what it appears to be -- an assertion. And, by agreeing with such a statement, I am claiming something that has implications. If there were a fact implied by another model that has violated this principle but that was not implied by a more parsimonious model, then I would say that such a "fact" was actually a false proposition. In many regards such a distinction is purely academic -- what does it matter if I say that some such view is false while you say it is not "false" but perhaps something more like dismissable? But, I do think that it is, in fact, more parsimonious epistemologically speaking (which doesn't matter since you don't think that epistemology has propositional content). And, I think that it does have a tendency to lead to potentially substantively different conclusions. Ultimately, the reason we seem to differ on this seems to be due to how we each react to the issue of philosophical vagueness. You take it to indicate the lack of propositional content in a priori subjects. I, on the other hand, reject the notion that precision is required for propositional content in a priori matters. |
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10-25-2002, 05:59 PM | #15 | ||||||||||||||||||||
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Longbow:
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You can try all day to come up with a factual proposition entailed by OR, but you won’t succeed. In fact, I can make a stronger statement. For any factual proposition P, OR combined with P does not entail any factual proposition not entailed by P alone. Quote:
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As to whether Ockham’s Razor is best expressed in the form of a declarative statement, that’s a matter of taste. “My wife is the most wonderful woman in the world” is a declarative statement, but it is not ordinarily meant to express a factual claim. The real question is not what grammatical form OR should be couched in, but whether it expresses a proposition. Quote:
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Again, I would allow that a statement S has factual content if there is a factual proposition P which, combined with S, entails some factual proposition which is not entailed by P alone. The statements “The Absolute is green”, “This world is but an illusion”, and “Reality is one” fail to satisfy even this criterion. I don’t see how you can get more liberal than that without rendering the term “factual content” completely meaningless. Quote:
“Close the door” does not entail that the door will be closed. The most that can be said is that if the injunction “close the door” is obeyed, the door will be closed. Similarly, “Open box A first” does not entail that box A will be opened first. The correct statement is that if the methodology you describe is followed, box A will be opened first. But this is not a factual statement; it is an analytic statement – i.e., a tautology. It is not entailed by the methodology; it is simply true by virtue of the meanings of the terms involved. In the case of Ockham’s Razor the corresponding claim would seem to be that, since it says to choose the simplest hypothesis consistent with the known facts, it entails that I will choose the simplest hypothesis consistent with the known facts. But this is nonsense; all that can be said is that if I choose the simplest hypothesis consistent with the known facts, I will have chosen the simplest hypothesis consistent with the known facts This is undoubtedly true, but it is not what Ockham’s Razor says; it is merely a trivial (and tautological) statement about the results of applying Ockham’s Razor. Quote:
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10-25-2002, 08:55 PM | #16 | ||||||||||||||
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So you are going to have to explain this one a lot better than this. Saying that they are meaningless because they aren't empirical would be begging the question. Quote:
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Seriously? In any case, the issue of parsimony is less irrelevant than you think. As a model of the phenomenon of philosophical inquiry, my views are more parsimonious than yours. I have this one epistemological object -- the proposition. You have two distinct objects handled in two very different ways. One is the proposition and the other is the rationally compelling principle. This is another reason you have the burden of proving that we need this distinction to properly account for everything. I think it can all be done with propositions. Furthermore, if you reject epistemology lock, stock and barrel, then that is one thing. You can just say that it is all "in the way of a recommendation". As soon as you admit that any of it isn't, then it is irrational (whether that is a proposition or "in the way of a recommendation") to have it divided needlessly into two parts -- that which is propositional and that which is "in the way of a recommendation". Quote:
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10-27-2002, 02:18 PM | #17 | |||
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Longbow:
At this point we seem to be talking past one another to such an extent that continuing to reply directly to your comments would be a complete waste of time. You completely misinterpret almost everything I say to such a degree that trying to clear up your misconceptions would take up far more time than I have available. So let me just try to get to the heart of the matter. First off, regardless of your obsessive belief to the contrary, our disagreement has nothing to do with “vagueness” or “fuzziness”. The problem is not that statements like “This world is but an illusion” or “Reality is one” are “fuzzy” or “vague”, but that they are completely meaningless. You seem to think that I say this because neither you nor anyone else has been able to explain exactly what they mean, but in fact I say it because no one has ever been able to give the slightest indication of even some part of what they mean. I have no idea how to give them even a partially intelligible interpretation – at least, if I’m restricted to interpreting them as expressing propositions. Instead of wasting your time trying to “explain” why I say this or challenging me to “prove” that these statements are meaningless, it would be more productive if you were to explain what propositions they express. I’m very flexible here. Rather than trying to explain their meaning in full, you can just specify some propositions that they entail, or even more liberally, some propositions that are entailed by them together with other propositions which are not entailed by the other propositions alone. Or, if you say that they don’t express propositions in any sense, then what is their function and purpose; in what context would the statement “reality is one”, for example, be relevant or appropriate, and what would be the function or purpose of making it? You say that these statements are “intelligible”, but I don’t find them so. Enlighten me. Second, I find your concept of “synthetic a priori” propositions incomprehensible. As I pointed out to you before, Kant’s use of this term is understandable, although I don’t really agree with his calling the things in question “propositions”. But I understand why he does. The important thing is that he understood his “synthetic a priori propositions” as statements about limitations on human understanding, or about how (given the way our minds work) we must necessarily perceive things. This is quite a different thing from claiming that there are “a priori” truths about the world which are true independently of who is perceiving it or the perceiver’s built-in conceptual framework. The basic problem is this. In order for a statement to be said to express a proposition, it must be meaningful to say that it is true or false. Now I understand what it means to say that an analytic statement is true: it means that it follows directly from the meaning of the terms involved. And I understand what it means to say that an empirical statement is true: it means that it divides the class of logically possible worlds into two subclasses, WT and WF, and asserts that this world is in WT. But you say that there is a third category of statements that express propositions: ones that are not true (or false) by virtue of the meaning of the terms involved, but are nevertheless true in all logically possible worlds. Thus a statement in this category does not divide the class of logically possible worlds into two subclasses, and saying that it is true cannot be interpreted as meaning that this world is in one of these subclasses rather than the other. But in that case I’m at a loss as to what it could possibly mean to say that such a statement is true. And until you can clarify what it means to say that such statements are true, I must continue to regard them as not expressing propositions – i.e., as statements that it is not meaningful to call “true” or “false”, although they might still be meaningful in some other way. Note that this objection to your notion of “synthetic a priori propositions” does not rest on logical positivism. I place no conditions on what sort of criteria may be used to define WT and WF, or on what sort of things might properly be said to “exist”. I simply insist that in order to be said to express a proposition, a statement must divide the class of logically possible worlds into two classes, WT and WF, such that it is true iff this world is in WT. But if you can give some other plausible account of what it means to say that a statement is true or false, I’d be happy to consider it. Again, the problem is not that I find such statements vague, but that I have no idea how they mean. That is, in what sense can they mean anything at all? Or equivalently, what does it mean to say that they are true or false? Third, you seem to think that my notion that Ockham’s Razor does not express a proposition is “ridiculous” – that this is a complete misreading of how philosophers in general understand it. I disagree. I think that this is pretty much how most philosophers understand it. They may not agree with my interpretation, but they do not regard it as expressing a proposition. At any rate, this interpretation is certainly not ridiculous, nor is it completely out of the philosophical mainstream. I already cited two reputable sources that define Ockham’s Razor in terms of imperative statements. The only other way that it is commonly phrased is that one “should” choose the simplest hypothesis. But saying that one “should” choose the simplest hypothesis is advocating or recommending or prescribing or enjoining doing so. (Note that the sense of “should” here is clearly not moral.) In other words, Ockham’s Razor is commonly understood as prescriptive. In fact, although Ockham’s Razor is a particularly clear example, I think that the great majority, if not all, metaphysical claims are properly understood as prescriptive. Here is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia Britannica article on metaphysics that explains this idea much better than I could. I quote it here both because it expresses my own view almost exactly and because it shows that such a view is (to say the least) philosophically respectable. Quote:
Now for comments on a couple of your replies. Quote:
Finally: Quote:
In any case, as I commented earlier, applying the “principle of parsimony” is out of place in this kind of context. One doesn’t decide whether there are “principles of action” on the basis of the principle of parsimony any more than one decides whether there are two different kinds of proposition (analytic and synthetic) on the basis of this principle. This is what empiricists do, but it is a mistake. There is obviously a fundamental difference between analytic and synthetic propositions, and it is absurd to say that a theory that denies this distinction is superior on the grounds that it is more parsimonious. Similarly, if it can be seen on reflection that there are such things as “principles of action” which cannot be reduced to propositions, a theory that denies that they exist is not superior because it is more “parsimonious”. And in fact principles of action cannot be reduced to propositions. Propositions simply do not go to “what to do” questions. Thus the propositions “X will make you happy” and “Y will make you miserable” have nothing to say about whether to do X or Y. For that you need a principle of action, such as “Other things being equal, do what makes you happy rather than what makes you miserable”. This particular principle can perhaps not be called a “principle of rational action”, because it is perhaps conceivable that some rational being might prefer being miserable to being happy, but it is certainly a principle of action that is universally valid for humans. Again, suppose that B is a factual proposition for which you have no evidence. You now are faced with the decision whether to believe B. Now you can say “believing in something without evidence is not justified”, but this merely leads to the conclusion that believing B is not justified; it still doesn’t answer the question of whether to believe it. For that we need a principle of action such as “Do not believe any factual proposition without evidence”. This tells us what to do. Thus principles of action have a function that simply cannot be fulfilled by propositions. Thus there clearly are such things as principles of action, and they cannot be reduced to propositions. So the “principle of parsimony” does not apply. A theory that achieves simplicity by ignoring important logical distinctions is not preferable on that account. |
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