SecularFuture

Aradia
Belief in an imaginary god concept is totally different from believing in the power of human ingenuity.

What good can come from believing in a god if there isn’t one? It’s just a giant waste of time. Theism needs to be eradicated! Supernaturalism is holding back realism.

SecularFuture

I'm sorry. I'm just completely fu#$ing irritated with everything right now. :banghead: My city. My state. My country. My job. THEISM! RELIGIOUS PEOPLE! It all makes me sick!

Celsus

Greetings all,

This thread has brought up some interesting points for discussion. Let's stick to this, and cut down on the spats.

[mod hat off]

SecularFuture, perhaps you can elaborate on how you expect transhumanism to be the cure you think it will be--especially this undertone of saving people from themselves. Technocratic "solutions" have never been very successful, especially external intervention unaccompanied by internal desire for change. Perhaps you might like to show how transhumanism gets its basic predictions about human nature right?

Joel aka Celsus
GRD Moderator

SecularFuture

Joel aka Celsus
Sure. I can do that.


My explanation begins with two questions:
• Why do theists believe in a god?
• Why do most theists fight so hard to defend their beliefs?


My personal theory is this:
Most theists believe in a god because they fear living in a world that is without some sort of governing force behind their lives. When you really think about, reality is quite scary. You only have control over yourself, and everything else around you is out of your control. Someone could walk up to you and shoot you without warning, or a storm could come and destroy your house, or an asteroid could come and destroy the entire planet. Through religion, you don’t have any reason to fear or have concern with the world around you because it is all under the control of a perfect deity who loves you. And no matter how much pain you and your family and friends may endure now, everything will have a happy ending in a perfect heaven, as long as you have faith in the deity. The more faith you have in the deity, the more it will protect you from the ”evils” of the world around you. It’s all very childish and annoying.

Even in the face of hard scientific theories and facts, most religionists refuse to bend or question their interpretations of our naturalistic world. And in all honesty, I don’t blame them. Why should they want to give up the perfect fantasy for a belief in a world without order, and the belief that a person’s life will eventually disappear from existence? This is why they fight so hard against atheism.

Transhumanism is both comforting and realistic. It combines Secular Humanism with a greater appreciation for science, medicine, and technology, the three things we will require a greater knowledge of for our survival in the future. Transhumanism is a complete package, all wrapped up in one word. Practically everything you need for a better now, and a better future can be found within the definition of this word.


Adherents of Transhumanism philosophy believe that:
1. Some (perhaps all) limitations of human nature are undesirable.
2. Science and technology, steered by human values, could enable us to transcend our limitations.
3. Transcending the current limitations of human nature will lead to remarkable reductions in human suffering and marvelous improvements in human freedom, happiness, and potential.


Unlike straight atheism and Secular Humanism, Transhumanism promotes the idea of “transcending our limitations” so that we -- our species -- may continue to survive for a very long time, if not forever. And, unlike religion, it puts all responsibility on the human race. If we want progress, it is all up to us, and not some magical deity that most likely doesn’t exist. Transhumanism takes Secular Humanism to another level, and makes religion irrelevant.


Transhumanism is DEEP.
I highly recommend these sites for further reading:
http://www.transhumanism.com/
http://www.transhumanism.org/
http://www.extropy.org/

http://www.changesurfer.com/
(a huge database of audio files)


From common sense, I suppose. Science and technology is improving daily, and perhaps -- one day -- we may be able to take control over our own evolution

wildernesse

I disagree. Most theists believe in their god because it is part and parcel of their cultural fabric. They are instructed from childhood about the way the world is--and for many people "the way the world is" includes a deity or dozen.
Do all religions have a perfect deity who loves those who adhere to its way of thinking? What about Buddhism? What about Greek mythos--imperfect non-omnimax deities who might have favored humans but I don't know that love always comes into the picture.
Do all religions have a heaven or an afterlife? Do those religions with a pleasant afterlife have conditions? Do the religions with a pleasant afterlife have a singular deity?
Evidence for "most religionists"? Science cannot disprove the supernatural--that it exists or what form it takes. It can show that previously thought supernatural occurrances are a result of natural phenonmena--but that does not rule out a supernatural.
You've never defined progress for me before. In fact, you haven't defined what limitations transhumanism is supposed to overcome, either.

I think that your objections to theism as a whole are too narrow, and are really only objections to Christianity that are projected onto all of theism. Transhumanism may be a fine thing to help you feel in control of your life, but that is what other religions and philosophies do also. It seems to be based just as much on beliefs and opinions as other religions.

--tibac

SecularFuture

wildernesse
We both could be right. It could be a combination of fear and upbringing. In actuality, there are many things that contribute to blind theistic belief. My personal theory is that religious theism develops and holds through fear.

I was referring to religions that adhere to supernatural concepts. What is the word used to describe religions that adhere to supernatural concepts? I don’t know it.

So... since science can’t disprove the supernatural, it must exist, right? Without complete knowledge of the naturalistic world, NO ONE can deem something as being supernatural. If a person deems something as being supernatural without complete knowledge, that person is jumping to conclusions without reason to do so.

Why should I have to? Isn’t the word self explanatory?

http://www.dictionary.com
* Movement, as toward a goal; advance.
* Development or growth.
* Steady improvement, as of a society or civilization: a believer in human progress.
* A ceremonial journey made by a sovereign through his or her realm.
* To advance; proceed.
* To advance toward a higher or better stage; improve steadily: as medical technology progresses.

All limitations.

And without complete knowledge of the naturalistic world, you are not in the position to deem what is impossible.

Nothing good can come from taking a magical concept literally, period. So, therefore, I am against all forms of theism.

Transhumanism relies on the power of human ingenuity. It does not rely on magical concepts.

Technology and medicine are improving daily. Do you believe technology and medicine will eventually stop progressing?! If you can’t tell me what kind of technology and medicine we will have 100 years from now, I don’t think you’re in the position to criticize anything in relation to Transhumanism.

Hubble head

Interesting topic. I often wonder where to go, if anywhere, beyond basic atheism. I consider myself more of a Secular Humanist but have not been introduced to Transhumanism until today. What other systems that hope to provide massive answers for secular world are out there? (please do not include Ayn Rand's Objectivism)

As time goes by and we see more and more atheists come out, I think we will see more divisions of atheists emerge as well. It's only human nature. Transhumanism is one path. Not the only path, just one path. The one thing that initially bothers me (and I could have misread) is that Transhumanism still involves some kind of leadership and hierarchal structure to group mentality. A group of a few people who make rules for everyone else always seems to create more problems than solve. Then again maybe religion-that invisible protective shield in front of our feudal-like rulers - is to blame.

Some of us will disagree on whether all religions and cults should be outlawed in the future; some will feel that people should be free to believe whatever they want. Others will debate the ethics of eternal life on this (or another) planet. Should we allow anyone to study fission if his/her intent is to build a weapon? There are many more arguments about society and science in a secular world that will require deep thought and then agreement.

If Transhumanism teaches people how to put their egos aside and constructively achieve new truths, it will be a huge improvement over what we have in place today regardless of what we will inherantly disagree on.

I hope to see more on Transhumanism and other evolutions/answers to where we could go from the final "great awakening" as a global secular society.

Aradia

On the surface, they are different. Dig deeper, and they're exactly the same. You'll never accept this, though, because you believe you know the One True Path(tm).

Plenty of good can come from believing in a god that doesn't exist. Perhaps you're blinded by your own hatred to see that, or perhaps you've just never had the opportunity to see the good that can come of it.

I hate to break it to you, but everything that we do is a giant waste of time. Eventually, we will all die. Nothing we do actually matters. It's the fear of nihilism that drives many people to believe, and it's the fear of nihilism that seems to drive you as well. And this does not paint a pretty picture of you:

If this is how transhumanism has affected you, I want no part of it. It seems to have done nothing for you except breed hatred and animosity towards others.

Take a deep breath, and relax. Religion is not out to get you. Religious people are not out to get you. It isn't a huge conspiracy.


-- Your friendly neighbourhood Buddhist

wildernesse

No, you were referring to most religions and implying that they all have perfect heavens that believers will reach if they simply believe in their deity, and that most religions have a loving, omnipotent deity. This is what you said:

I was pointing out that a good chunk of religions might not have these concepts. Therefore, this generalization does not fit "most" religions.

Without complete knowledge, we can make no conclusions whatsoever that are binding. That includes whether or not a supernatural exists.


andFine. Progressing towards WHAT? Progress to what end? Progress simply means (as your definition shows) a positive movement toward a goal--it is not an end of itself. What do you consider positive movement? What is the goal?

What do you consider a limitation? Also, I did not say anything about anything being impossible. However--if your sentence is true for me, then it is true for you as well and you are in no position to deem what is impossible.

Your opinion is duly noted. I assert that good can come from theism, as well as magical concepts. We're equal now.

And yet it serves the same role for you that my theism serves for me--it provides a framework for viewing the world. Your dismissal of "magical concepts" does not negate this and it is only your opinion that relying on the power of human ingenuity is better than the alternative.

What? You obviously do not have complete knowledge of all theistic beliefs and practices, so an analogous response to you is that you are in no position to criticize anything in relation to theism. Also, if *you* can't tell me what kind of technology and medicine we will have 100 years from now, I don't think you're in any position to advocate for Transhumanism.


--tibac

Hubble head

Secular Future,

I agree with your first two paragraph's 100%. Did you write that or is it someone else's words you interpreted? Either way, it could make a good opening for any book on anything related to atheism.

After reading some replies here I can understand your frustration but to let it show is not the best form for debating.

Agnostics and others on their way to atheism cannot be forced or hurried along in any way. Doing that will likely have the opposite affect. Trying to promote a world run by scientists and humanistic values is as foreign to some here as crying statues are to us.

Once people find true acceptance and belief for a system of answers to life, they feel much more content for awhile as their confusion and uncertainty evaporate and association with something bigger than them is integrated into their being. Theists call it feeling the spirit enter your body but it is felt by any person who accepts any world/life POV that releases them from perceived darkness and ignorance.

Introducing a new belief system means entering a phase of uncertainty and confusion again and most just won't bother or are not mentally strong enough to objectively evaluate different belief systems once they settle on the one that made them so content back when they first accepted it.

If introduction of reason and rationality was enough, the world would have shed it’s myths and superstitions long ago.