seebs

Yeah. I think I'm gonna have to grant that the organization can to some extent act like another entity - but I still think it gets moved by the members somewhat over time.

And yes, spend time with your family. If only the people who spend all their time lamenting the loss of "family values" would do so much!

Buddhist belief does not imply anything that I would call a "god". I would call any cosmology/philosophy that does not include a god to be a "kind of atheism". Secular humanism is a kind of atheism. Ancestor worship (if there's no gods in it) is a kind of atheism. Any belief system that doesn't include gods has to be some sort of atheism. (As several people have pointed out, you can argue that Christianity is atheism with respect to all the other gods people have ever believed in.)

Secular Elation

I don't know about "punishing". I'm not convinced that "punishment" is a correct description of any part of Christian theology about God, but that's a separate question.

So, you believe that Hell isn't a form of punishment?

About Buddhism. Even if some of it's practitioners are atheistic, Buddhism itself is a religion. Atheism per se is not a religion.

seebs

I don't think it's "punishment" any more than it's "punishment" that vile, evil, hateful physics cracks and burns my skin if I hold my hand in a fire.

Atheism does not imply some religions. Some religions are clearly within the scope of atheism. This is one of those A->B vs. B->A things.

Secular Elation

I don't think it's "punishment" any more than it's "punishment" that vile, evil, hateful physics cracks and burns my skin if I hold my hand in a fire.

Therefore, God sending me to Hell isn't punishment? But it is in fact an unpleasent consequence he would be imposing on me, likely because I don't believe in him. As far as I'm concerned, that is punishment.

Atheism does not imply some religions. Some religions are clearly within the scope of atheism. This is one of those A->B vs. B->A things.

Yeah, but my point is that if you approach a random person and they say they are an atheist, do not immediately assume they are religious. Just as with the case at these boards, where nearly all (I imagine) the atheists do not submit to any form of religious belief. But there has come a Buddhist here an there.

Yes, some religions are in the scope of atheism, simply because such religions do not have deities that are worshiped by the followers. But a plain atheist, like Magelth and I, do not practice any religious code. (But that doesn't mean we do not obey a moral code)

[ June 19, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

Godless Dave

Let me weigh in here:

Organized Christianity has generally taught that homosexuality is wrong. The people who teach that have found basis in scripture. However I agree with Seebs that the most stridently anti-gay Christians are using their religion to justify their hatred, and that hatred doesn't necessarily follow from Christianity. Some Christians, like Seebs, don't believe that homosexuality is immoral. Unfortunately they're still in the minority.

However Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on homophobia. I don't think the attitude in China reported by Seebs has its roots in any religion, or even in the tenets of Maoism. However, the rulers of China are autocratic and don't tolerate dissent or open discussion. So if they decide they don't like gay people, they can spread that attitude throughout their population, using autocracy as the medium just as religion is the medium for spreading it in other parts of the world.

Secular Elation

It's almost the same thing with slavery in the 18th century. Abolitionists used Biblical reasoning against slavery, while the proslaverites did the same thing to support their position. Go figure.

However, the situation is a bit different, because there isn't any mortal threat to the existence of homosexuality (as the Civil War was the mortal threat that lead to the end of American slavery).

seebs

Same as your hand burning is an unpleasent consequence of the way God keeps enforcing physics even when it hurts us. I don't see it as being the same class of thing.

Indeed, I would not generally assume that atheists are religious - but that doesn't mean that a given religious belief can't be a form of atheism.

I think that's the case with most atheists. I've met occasional people whose atheistic beliefs pass the duck test for religion, but not a whole lot. (Proselytizing, contempt and/or hatred of those who disagree, definitive claims without externally verifiable proof, and the claims are used as the basis for a world view.)

seebs

There is, however, a mortal threat to homophobia... at least, I like to think so.

Mageth

There is, however, a mortal threat to homophobia... at least, I like to think so.

Hear hear!

Yellow3

Bit off the original topic, but there are forms of Buddhism that involve gods (and man, plenty of them. . .). The Bodhisattvas come to mind, like the one I have sitting next to my door; Kwan Yin, the goddess of mercy. Stuff like that's pretty darn popular - it's Mahayana or "large raft" sect, I think, meaning that it's more easily accepted by the common people (and as such would probably be more common than the no-gods-at-all forms). But I wouldn't be able to give you numbers and it's not on-topic anyway.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion.

- Jen