Freethought & Rationalism Archive

09-06-2002, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:


Buddhism is, like Christianity, just another religion in which humans fancy themselves to be separate from nature and want to break all ties with the natural All.

This is true during the involutionary yin period.

The prefix -hu is from -humi and means earthly to render humans "earthly" and "man" heavenly beings--if you allow me to posite heaven opposite to earth. Religion aims to lead the human identity far away from the animal man identity and built for this new image of man a giant tower of earthly riches. In that sense we must color our own world and make the best of it while religion is or should be there to help us and lead humans deep into the darkness of their own human vanity and vaingloriousness.

I understand that this is just opposite to most peoples opinion about religion but that is only because most religions are facing people into the worng direction. Notice that Catholic Churches were always facing East to have the doors facing West.

The truth is we are animals. We are part of Nature, and there's no escaping that. And we are here because of desires.

The truth is we are animals but with an ego such as we have built for ourself as humans (for good reason indeed) it is impossible to convince our own human identity that that is true. This is why the realization of this truth cannot be another dimension added to our hubris but instead must our entire persona(lity) be abandonned to leave us with the bare naked animal identity . . . to which later is added the old ego identity but now subservient to our true animal identity (reason subservient to intuition with Krishna in charge and Arguna but along for the ride).

In other words, to reach enlightenment we must abandon our kingdom of worldly richess (extacy) and somewhere in the valley of shadows (parody) our own animal identity will enlighten us as to who we really are. The difficulty here is that it is impossible to rationally abandon our faculty of reason and is why true religions are mystery religions (both Buddhism and Catholicsm are mystery religions).

This will mark the beginning of the evolutionary Yang period.

09-06-2002, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep:
heathen dawn

Our body of knowledge and tool development has never given, is not presently giving, and almost surely will never give us either physical security or well-being. The more vast and awesome our tool production has become, the greater our anxiety, hostility, fear, resentment and aggression. But the direct correlation between our anxiety and tool production is almost beyond our grasp because our intelligence is itself the result of our conditioning by and within that very body of knowledge. Our intelligence is trained to believe that any imperfections in the reality resulting from our activities, such as personal anguish, misery, and fear, simply indicate the need for improvement in the body of knowledge and/or improvement in tool production, distribution, and application. Even as our body of knowledge splits us off from our lives and creates anxiety and unhappiness, it conditions us to believe religiously that escape from our misery lies in perfecting that body of knowledge.

Joseph Chilton Pearce, Magical Child

Very true and especially in a Democracy in which the GNP alone is a measure of success. The price for this is paid for by the collective happines of the nation.

09-06-2002, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep:
Amos:

alright, that's enough rambling for me- tell me about spiritual fulfillment, if you will, Amos

Hello sweep, I just read you post and maybe your answer is contained in my comments to Heathen Dawn.

Infinity Lover · 09-06-2002, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sweep:
we do try to escape from nature- and here's how It seems relevant:

how do we believe that we can predict and control the natural forces of the universe? Through clever intellectual manipulations and tool usage. ...
Having no personal power to draw on, we are reduced to only one source of power: tool usage...

Joseph Chilton Pearce, Magical Child

I'd like to add, that we are also intellectual and creative, in that sense that we are capable of creating the (alledged) nessecity for something out of thin air.

We're capable of thinking up a bogus need for an otherwise useless product/service and sell the idea to others.

Not the desire to exclude desire, but the desire to induce desire.

And I'd also like to add, that we're still not sure how life came about on this planet.
The initial cause of all life (or at least on this here planet) may very well be coincidence.

Do microscopic elements have desires?
Do the forces of nature have desires?

[ September 06, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]

Heathen Dawn · 09-07-2002, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Infinity Lover:
Do microscopic elements have desires?
Do the forces of nature have desires?

Not in the sense we animals think of "desire", but they have, in essence, the same thing that leads us towards desire: their inherent, immanent accord. It is the inherent accord of wind to blow, of amoebas to split and of humans to have sex. The whole universe is driven towards creativity (evolutionary creativity) by the immanent accords of all the elements.

(edited for typo fixing)

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Heathen Dawn ]

Eudaimonist · 09-07-2002, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
Not in the sense we animals think of "desire", but they have, in essence, the same thing that leads us towards desire: their inherent, immanent accord. It is the inherent accord of wind to blow, of amoebas to split and of humans to have sex. The whole universe is driven towards creativity (evolutionary creativity) by the immanent accords of all the elements.

Okay, I'll bite. What is "accord"?

Is that anything like Aristotelian Final Causation?

Heathen Dawn · 09-07-2002, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eudaimonist:
Okay, I'll bite. What is "accord"?

Nothing more than a drive, a self-propelled action. If you ask why the wind blows, or the amoeba splits, or humans have sex, the deep answer is that they just do so. Just because. "Accord" is the "just because". All of the naturalistic creation saga (aka evolution by natural selection) is the saga of clashing accords and desires.

Eudaimonist · 09-07-2002, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:
Nothing more than a drive, a self-propelled action. If you ask why the wind blows, or the amoeba splits, or humans have sex, the deep answer is that they just do so. Just because. "Accord" is the "just because".

Thanks, that's clearer now. I use the word "nature" or "identity" instead.

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]

09-07-2002, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heathen Dawn:


Nothing more than a drive, a self-propelled action. If you ask why the wind blows, or the amoeba splits, or humans have sex, the deep answer is that they just do so. Just because. "Accord" is the "just because". All of the naturalistic creation saga (aka evolution by natural selection) is the saga of clashing accords and desires.

How about intelligent design instead of "accord" because "selection" implies awareness and since nature does not have a mind of its own it cannot select anything. "Evolution by natural selection" is an observation made out of ignorance and the "clashing accords and desires" you speak of are caused by vacuums between the positive and negatives. To be sure, the wind does not blow where it wills and our drive for sex is aimed to quench a desire towards our opposite and this is only possible because we are alienated from our neutral position.

Sorry, the neutral here is at peace or at rest without desire as if we are the centre of the universe. In this stage the whole world evolves around us while we are immovable and at rest (no desire in heaven).

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]

Infinity Lover · 09-07-2002, 04:21 PM

Amos keeps adding (no desire in heaven).

Does that mean there's also no fullfilment in heaven. (or at least his concept of heaven, to keep it clean and open to debate).

And isn't the afterlife a desire in itself?
Which makes it come full circle with desiring to not-desire.

What do you fancy heaven to be Amos?
Fascinated in this respect; not taking the P.

"And that heaven is overrated"
(Drops of Jupiter; Train. Nice song

)

[ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]

09-07-2002, 04:21 PM	#30
Infinity Lover Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,047	Amos keeps adding (no desire in heaven). Does that mean there's also no fullfilment in heaven. (or at least his concept of heaven, to keep it clean and open to debate). And isn't the afterlife a desire in itself? Which makes it come full circle with desiring to not-desire. What do you fancy heaven to be Amos? Fascinated in this respect; not taking the P. "And that heaven is overrated" (Drops of Jupiter; Train. Nice song ) [ September 07, 2002: Message edited by: Infinity Lover ]</p>

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