Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Answerer · 05-05-2003, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ockhamite

You are aware that SARS patients will almost always recover, regardless of medical attention.....or prayer.

Nope, certainly not the case here. Most will die without proper medical attention. O fcourse, a few strong one will recover from the illness quite immediately

Oxymoron · 05-06-2003, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corona688
It's a psychological effect, is the best theory i've heard. The mind affects the body in many and complex ways, so it's not just a single 'placebo affect'. It's a byproduct of the way our body and brain interact.

A recent result of research showed that 'positive thinking' in terminal cancer patients had no statistically significant impact on their lifespan, relative to those who harboured neutral or negative thoughts. However, the time they did live was much more pleasant

...which seems to suggest that the links betwixt mind and body are subtler than we thought. The placebo effect is, of course, well documented. And this study is only of terminal patients. What would be interesting if the experiment could be repeated, only adding the prayer dimension, in an attempt to determine if prayer could do what positive outlook could not.

Of course, that would really be a waste of research money because prayer should be laughed at by doctors; but, y'know how it is sometimes with folk who ought to know better...

ps418 · 05-06-2003, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer
Nope, certainly not the case here. Most will die without proper medical attention. O fcourse, a few strong one will recover from the illness quite immediately

Not so. Even in the elderly, the SARS mortality rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%.

Patrick

Answerer · 05-06-2003, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ps418
Not so. Even in the elderly, the SARS mortality rate is somewhere in the neighborhood of 10%.

Patrick

SARS is more harmful to the age groups of 21 to 40 than it does to other age groups. I still don't know the reason behind this.

NonHomogenized · 05-06-2003, 10:58 PM

Of course prayer works. It works at right around the same rate as doing nothing but being hopeful (maybe slightly higher due to placebo effects), right around the same rate as thinking "good thoughts", right around the same rate as being baselessly confident in the outcome, and so forth.
It often seems, to superstitious people, that whatever their superstition is, works more often than doing nothing. This is easily explainable because they are more likely to remember the times they got what they prayed/magicked/did a voodoo ritual/burnt an offering/etc for.

charlie d · 05-07-2003, 05:15 AM

The weirdest study on the effect of prayer I know of is this one:

Quote:

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial.
Leibovici L.
BMJ 2001 Dec 22-29;323(7327):1450-1

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether remote, retroactive intercessory prayer, said for a group of patients with a bloodstream infection, has an effect on outcomes. DESIGN: Double blind, parallel group, randomised controlled trial of a retroactive intervention. SETTING: University hospital. SUBJECTS: All 3393 adult patients whose bloodstream infection was detected at the hospital in 1990-6. INTERVENTION: In July 2000 patients were randomised to a control group and an intervention group. A remote, retroactive intercessory prayer was said for the well being and full recovery of the intervention group. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Mortality in hospital, length of stay in hospital, and duration of fever. RESULTS: Mortality was 28.1% (475/1691) in the intervention group and 30.2% (514/1702) in the control group (P for difference=0.4). Length of stay in hospital and duration of fever were significantly shorter in the intervention group than in the control group (P=0.01 and P=0.04, respectively). CONCLUSION: Remote, retroactive intercessory prayer said for a group is associated with a shorter stay in hospital and shorter duration of fever in patients with a bloodstream infection and should be considered for use in clinical practice.

Basically, not only it says that prayer works, but it can work retroactively (iow, you can pray for somebody who was sick 10 years ago, and thanks to your prayers today they did feel better then).
Pretty spooky, uh?

On the other hand, prayer apparently cannot save your life, but only reduce your hospital bills.

For some good discussion on the paper, and its flaws, make sure you read the "Rapid responses" at the bottom of the page.

ps418 · 05-07-2003, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Answerer
SARS is more harmful to the age groups of 21 to 40 than it does to other age groups. I still don't know the reason behind this.

I dont think that's correct either. The effects are far worse in those older than 60, at least in terms of mortality rate.

BTW, what I said in my last post appears to be incorrect, based on an epidemiological study of1,425 patients published in The Lancet today. The mortality rate in the elderly is now said to be much higher than 10%, and maybe higher than 50%, at least in Hong Kong.

Quote:

An international team of researchers has estimated that the fatality rate for SARS is considerably higher than some early estimates.

According to a paper published online today in The Lancet, which examines data from the first nine weeks of Hong Kong's epidemic, the case fatality rate, among those admitted to hospital, in patients 60 years of age and older is estimated to be far higher (43.3%, 95% confidence interval 35.2 to 52.4%) than those below 60 (13.2%, 95% confidence interval 9.8 to 16.8%).

Similar estimates were obtained using a second statistical estimation method: 55.0% (95% confidence interval 45.3 to 64.7%) for those aged 60 or older and 6.8% (95% confidence interval (95% confidence interval 4.0 to 9.6%) in those below 60.

Estimated Fatality Rate For Hong Kong SARS Higher Than Previously Thought

Patrick

infidelchic · 05-07-2003, 03:31 PM

Eggplant,
Pease click HERE and read!

chic

johngalt · 05-07-2003, 04:14 PM

Power of the mind.

Happy Wonderer · 05-07-2003, 09:35 PM

Latest estimates on SARS fatality from WHO

Just came across this global age breakdown. Right now the thinking is that

24 or younger: less than one percent fatality
25 to 44: %6 fatality
45 to 64: %15 fatality
65 or older: %50 fatality

I do not know if there are any studies of post-survival effects yet.
hw

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05-06-2003, 10:58 PM	#15
NonHomogenized Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: no longer at IIDB Posts: 1,644	Of course prayer works. It works at right around the same rate as doing nothing but being hopeful (maybe slightly higher due to placebo effects), right around the same rate as thinking "good thoughts", right around the same rate as being baselessly confident in the outcome, and so forth. It often seems, to superstitious people, that whatever their superstition is, works more often than doing nothing. This is easily explainable because they are more likely to remember the times they got what they prayed/magicked/did a voodoo ritual/burnt an offering/etc for.

05-07-2003, 03:31 PM	#18
infidelchic Banned Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: USA Posts: 41	Eggplant, Pease click HERE and read! chic

05-07-2003, 04:14 PM	#19
johngalt Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 204	Power of the mind.

05-07-2003, 09:35 PM	#20
Happy Wonderer Veteran Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Washington, the least religious state Posts: 5,334	Latest estimates on SARS fatality from WHO Just came across this global age breakdown. Right now the thinking is that 24 or younger: less than one percent fatality 25 to 44: %6 fatality 45 to 64: %15 fatality 65 or older: %50 fatality I do not know if there are any studies of post-survival effects yet. hw

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