Rhaedas

I can almost see that interpretation, Magus, but then you have to fit in Genesis 1:14-17, and if firmament is the atmosphere, we have the stars, planets, sun and moon all in the air...

Plus, God states that firmament is Heaven...so the air is Heaven? Maybe we can twist that to mean that without air, there is no heaven on earth, no life at all...but then you stray away from being a literalist.

Easier to accept that the ancients were visualizing the world the best they could at the time.

Kosh

But you're not quite right here, are you? There is water *everywhere* in the atmosphere. This is what relative humidity is measuring. The amount of water relative to the maximum amount. Don't think I've evern seen a measurement of [b]zero[b]. So the humidity in the atmosphere goes right down to ground level.

There is not seperation using this definition.

Face it, the ancient cosmology of Genesis is flat (ehem) wrong, and no amout of wiggling will change that.

BTW - did we mention the bit about the stars being stuck on the inside of that big dome? LOL.

Magus55

No, as I just said, firmament means expanse. The first firmament is the one that seperates the water on earth from the water vapor, or the atmosphere - the second firmament is space ( which is often called the Heavens in Hebrew) and in the second firmament, or expanse of space - God puts the stars. There are three "Heavens" in hebrew, the first being the atmosphere, the second being space/stars/planets etc., the third being where God's throne is.

l-bow

Magus,

Justify your position. The hebrew word is "raqiya" which is derived from "riqqua", which means "beaten out". Sure sounds solid to me, and NOT empty space or atmosphere.

mark9950

I think that is from NRSV translation.

Celsus

Magus,

It might help you to pay attention to other people's posts. Just a over a week ago, in this thread Peter Kirby showed you this:


... And I pointed this out to you:

• Toward the end of this chapter, Heeren offers a discussion of the Hebrew word "rakiya" (resh-kof-yud-ayin) which he transliterates as "raquia." Heeren repeats the interpretation of that word given several times by various writers, who all intended to find in this word a hint at the Bible's alleged indication of the universe?s expansion. To achieve such an interpretation, usually reference is made to the verb "raka" (resh-kof-ayin) one of whose meanings in Hebrew is "to stretch." The definitive Hebrew dictionary by Even-Shoshan provides a number of meanings for the word rakiya, but none of them is expanse. The closest translation of "rakiya" (which in KJV is translated as "firmament") would be "canopy" or "tent" (which, of course, must be stretched to serve its purpose). For the ancient writers who wrote the book of Genesis, the description of the sky as a canopy or tent was a natural manifestation of their view of the apparent blue cupola above their heads. To derive from that word an indication of the expanding universe requires a very inventive imagination indeed. Some Hebrew-English dictionaries (for example, the dictionary edited by David Shumaker translates rakiya as vault. Whichever of the possible translations of that word one chooses, expanse is one of the least reasonable.

It is completely disingenuous or dishonest to repeat the same arguments which have already been shown to be false a mere week ago. Unless of course you rebutt them. The ball's in your court, and mere assertions won't cut it.

Joel

NZAmoeba

firmament does not mean 'expanse' it means a solid object. The atmosphere is no where near solid.

Also, there is another mention of the 'oceans under the earth' when god gives out his commandments, he mentions something about making no idols of the creatures that dwell in the oceans under the earth right?

Last time i checked, this planet didn't float on anything.