Freethought & Rationalism Archive

11-25-2002, 03:41 PM

Should I pity Mr. Brad? Nope ... he choose his own path and he have to live with it.

This is one example why you shouldn't teach a turtle how to "fight" like a tiger, in the end, you only have a turtle and not a tiger no matter how hard you try.

Zen Buddhism (or any other Buddhism) is simply discpline of the mind and body, if you enter a monastery with thought such as "I will learn AND master it in couple of years OR the whole things is a fraud", then you might as well say it is a fraud to begin with and stop wasting other people's time which they could spent increasing their own knowledge.

11-25-2002, 03:46 PM

"I'm sure you're aware that many forms of martial arts trace their origins back to the Shaolin Monastery in China. "

My reply : Not exactly true ... Buddhism only came to Japan around 13th Century (came to China around 12th Century) if I'm not mistaken. Before that, most of martial artists in China mainland and Japan follow other more local beliefs such as Taoist (China) and its distant cousin Shinto (Japan).

gsx1138 · 11-25-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Cult? What cult is that? Can say I never actually met anyone (as in talking with them) who belong to a cult, but my country did see its share of cults and such for the past 30 years.

I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and they're about as cult as you can get without the kool-aid.
I've only studied Isshin-ryu Karate and Tae Kwon Do so I don't have a first hand knowledge of chinese arts. However, I have learned the yang short form for Tai Chi from a video

It is very hard to go from a hard style to a soft style.

11-25-2002, 08:38 PM

"I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and they're about as cult as you can get without the kool-aid.
I've only studied Isshin-ryu Karate and Tae Kwon Do so I don't have a first hand knowledge of chinese arts. However, I have learned the yang short form for Tai Chi from a video It is very hard to go from a hard style to a soft style. "

My reply : Hmmm ... I see ... heard about this Jehovah's Witness, but don't know the details much. Is it conversational style or liberal type?

When I said Yin Yang, I meant the principles alone. Never actually tried those movements since Tai chi have nothing much to do with martials arts. I don't think a Tai chi practitioner could take out a person fast, the best he could do was protect himself, which was useless if he was overpowered, exhausted from protecting himself for a long period of time or forced in a tight position such as in an alley.

In my opinion, Tai chi is good for the balance of the body and the mind, useless in street fighting. BTW, I'm into Ninjutsu.

Boro Nut · 11-26-2002, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gsx1138:
First Buddhist Experience

I think it was a spur of the moment thing for me, just seeing all those bald headed people walking along the pavement, wrapped in coloured sheets, following the sound of a bell. I had nothing better to do, so I just took it upon myself to follow them to see what I could learn about it all. Buddhism had always held a fascination for me. I can't say I learned anything of note, only that they have a fire drill at the luekaemia clinic every Tuesday morning.

Boro Nut

lugotorix · 11-26-2002, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:

Logotrix: I agree, the third source is questionable. But you haven't refuted my other two sources with anything more then conjecture. Please put up some links to a few sites with quotes to show me directly how mine are incorrect.

SadlIy, I don't have all day to go sifting through the sites you gave me and arguing with you over an interpretation of what the "true message" of Buddhism is about. We are talking about what Theravada Buddhists believe, if you think this diverges from what the historical Buddha taught *shrugs*, not relevant really. They simply disagree.

Please provide a link and quote from a specific article that claims Theravada Buddhists do not think only monks can reach Enlightenment.

It's a shame that you have the time to find some sites with a negative view of Buddhism but you don't have the time to read the Theravada scriptures (ie, to go to the primary sources).

Anyway, you want quotes, you get quotes.

From Buddhism In A Nutshell, by the Theravada monk Narada Mahathera, on the <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/nutshell.html#ch11" target="_blank">Access to Insight</a> website:

Quote:

It should not be understood that everyone is expected to lead the life of a Bhikkhu [monk] or a celibate life to achieve one's goal. One's spiritual progress is expedited by being a Bhikkhu although as a lay follower one can become an Arahat [ie enlightened]. After attaining the third state of Sainthood, one leads a life of celibacy.

and

Quote:

A Buddhist who is fully convinced of the doctrine of Kamma does not pray to another to be saved but confidently relies on himself for his purification because it teaches individual responsibility.

And with regards to the biased article you quoted

Quote:

(quote from <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html):" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/la/mysterion/budint.html):</a>
Theravada buddhists believe that there was and is and will be only one Buddha, that the historical Gautama.

In the <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn32.html#s24-4" target="_blank">Atanatiya Sutta</a> in the Digha Nikaya, they list seven Buddhas, ending with the present one -- Vipassi, Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusanda, Konagama, Kassapa, Gotama <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn32.html#s24-4" target="_blank">Atanatiya Sutta</a>

And finally, with regards to the final bit of FUD you quoted about "Hinayana" being the original name for Theravada Buddhism, here's a quote for you from Clearing Up Some Misconceptions about Buddhism, by Ron Epstein, at SFSU:

Quote:

The Theravada School of Buddhism, which is found in Sri Lanka and most of Southeast Asia, should not be called 'Hinayana', because Hinayana originally referred to the commitment of individuals, not to a school of Buddhism. Later it became incorrectly used as an inappropriate and pejorative term for the Theravada.

Now that I've done you a good deed and pointed out with quotes that all of the excerpts you posted were wrong on every point, would you please try looking at some of the sites I posted? At the very least, could you read Ron Epstein's article, Clearing Up Some Misconceptions about Buddhism (<a href="http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Buddhism/Misconceptions%20about%20Buddhism.htm" target="_blank">available here</a>). Thanks.

lugotorix

andy_d · 11-27-2002, 07:29 AM

My understanding of Theravedan teachings (and i'm Vajrayana, btw) was that lay people could achieve the level of an Arhat.

Vajrayana differentiates between this level and full enlightenment. Arhatship is described as liberation, which isn't considered to be fully enlightened.

I wasn't aware that they considered only clergy could achieve enlightenment. Certainly the Vajrayana viewpoint is that Theraveda practice is massively time consuming, and therefore of less use to a lay person.

It's also important to remember that temples and monks have more to do with organised religion than personal development. They're excellent centres of learning and transmission, but i'm not sure how well they mesh with the western lifestyle (for the majority of us, anyway). They certainly bring a lot of eastern cultural baggage with them that isn't actually necessary to practice Buddhism.

monkey mind · 11-27-2002, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
Should I pity Mr. Brad? Nope ... he choose his own path and he have to live with it.

This is one example why you shouldn't teach a turtle how to "fight" like a tiger, in the end, you only have a turtle and not a tiger no matter how hard you try.

Zen Buddhism (or any other Buddhism) is simply discpline of the mind and body, if you enter a monastery with thought such as "I will learn AND master it in couple of years OR the whole things is a fraud", then you might as well say it is a fraud to begin with and stop wasting other people's time which they could spent increasing their own knowledge.

I don't understand what your trying to say here... is this in regards to the site I posted?

monkey mind · 11-27-2002, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
"I'm sure you're aware that many forms of martial arts trace their origins back to the Shaolin Monastery in China. "

My reply : Not exactly true ... Buddhism only came to Japan around 13th Century (came to China around 12th Century) if I'm not mistaken. Before that, most of martial artists in China mainland and Japan follow other more local beliefs such as Taoist (China) and its distant cousin Shinto (Japan).

I think you are mistaken, about the date of Buddhism arriving in China. I believe the White Horse Monastery is thought to be the first Chinese Buddhist Temple and it gots back far before the 12th century.

Just some trivia.

11-27-2002, 03:26 PM

My qoute :
"Should I pity Mr. Brad? Nope ... he choose his own path and he have to live with it."

"I don't understand what your trying to say here... is this in regards to the site I posted? "

My reply : Yes, it was. I was referring to Brad of that site you gave me. He seems to have entered Zen Buddhism with a thought that it was like a summer camp - you go, you have fun, you get lucky with girls, you came back home with a few memories to brag around your friends later.

How pitiful ... I wonder if most of Westerners who approach an Eastern principle have such notion to begin with. If so, I suggest you do not waste your time trying to learn any Eastern principles since it WILL be beyond your comprehension.

"I think you are mistaken, about the date of Buddhism arriving in China. I believe the White Horse Monastery is thought to be the first Chinese Buddhist Temple and it gots back far before the 12th century. "

My reply : Yes ... Maybe a mistake here with the date. I guess I was referring to the time where Buddhism was at its peak in China.

<a href="http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/deall/jin.3/c231/handouts/h10.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/deall/jin.3/c231/handouts/h10.htm</a>

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11-25-2002, 03:41 PM	#81
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Should I pity Mr. Brad? Nope ... he choose his own path and he have to live with it. This is one example why you shouldn't teach a turtle how to "fight" like a tiger, in the end, you only have a turtle and not a tiger no matter how hard you try. Zen Buddhism (or any other Buddhism) is simply discpline of the mind and body, if you enter a monastery with thought such as "I will learn AND master it in couple of years OR the whole things is a fraud", then you might as well say it is a fraud to begin with and stop wasting other people's time which they could spent increasing their own knowledge.

11-25-2002, 03:46 PM	#82
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I'm sure you're aware that many forms of martial arts trace their origins back to the Shaolin Monastery in China. " My reply : Not exactly true ... Buddhism only came to Japan around 13th Century (came to China around 12th Century) if I'm not mistaken. Before that, most of martial artists in China mainland and Japan follow other more local beliefs such as Taoist (China) and its distant cousin Shinto (Japan).

11-25-2002, 08:38 PM	#84
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I was raised a Jehovah's Witness and they're about as cult as you can get without the kool-aid. I've only studied Isshin-ryu Karate and Tae Kwon Do so I don't have a first hand knowledge of chinese arts. However, I have learned the yang short form for Tai Chi from a video It is very hard to go from a hard style to a soft style. " My reply : Hmmm ... I see ... heard about this Jehovah's Witness, but don't know the details much. Is it conversational style or liberal type? When I said Yin Yang, I meant the principles alone. Never actually tried those movements since Tai chi have nothing much to do with martials arts. I don't think a Tai chi practitioner could take out a person fast, the best he could do was protect himself, which was useless if he was overpowered, exhausted from protecting himself for a long period of time or forced in a tight position such as in an alley. In my opinion, Tai chi is good for the balance of the body and the mind, useless in street fighting. BTW, I'm into Ninjutsu.

11-27-2002, 07:29 AM	#87
andy_d Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: umop apisbn Posts: 568	My understanding of Theravedan teachings (and i'm Vajrayana, btw) was that lay people could achieve the level of an Arhat. Vajrayana differentiates between this level and full enlightenment. Arhatship is described as liberation, which isn't considered to be fully enlightened. I wasn't aware that they considered only clergy could achieve enlightenment. Certainly the Vajrayana viewpoint is that Theraveda practice is massively time consuming, and therefore of less use to a lay person. It's also important to remember that temples and monks have more to do with organised religion than personal development. They're excellent centres of learning and transmission, but i'm not sure how well they mesh with the western lifestyle (for the majority of us, anyway). They certainly bring a lot of eastern cultural baggage with them that isn't actually necessary to practice Buddhism.

11-27-2002, 03:26 PM	#90
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	My qoute : "Should I pity Mr. Brad? Nope ... he choose his own path and he have to live with it." "I don't understand what your trying to say here... is this in regards to the site I posted? " My reply : Yes, it was. I was referring to Brad of that site you gave me. He seems to have entered Zen Buddhism with a thought that it was like a summer camp - you go, you have fun, you get lucky with girls, you came back home with a few memories to brag around your friends later. How pitiful ... I wonder if most of Westerners who approach an Eastern principle have such notion to begin with. If so, I suggest you do not waste your time trying to learn any Eastern principles since it WILL be beyond your comprehension. "I think you are mistaken, about the date of Buddhism arriving in China. I believe the White Horse Monastery is thought to be the first Chinese Buddhist Temple and it gots back far before the 12th century. " My reply : Yes ... Maybe a mistake here with the date. I guess I was referring to the time where Buddhism was at its peak in China. <a href="http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/deall/jin.3/c231/handouts/h10.htm" target="_blank">http://www.cohums.ohio-state.edu/deall/jin.3/c231/handouts/h10.htm</a>

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