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Old 01-28-2003, 10:25 AM   #1
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Default The politics of landmines

Just to get started:
Quote:
from a Sydney Morning Herald report:

Vietnam has signed an agreement with the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation to draw up a detailed survey of unexploded ordnance (UXO) and landmines littering the country after decades of conflict.

"The Vietnam UXO/landmine Impact Assessment and Survey will measure levels of contamination and the effect it has on communities," the US-headquartered non-governmental organisation said today
.....................
According to a 1998 survey by the Ministry of Labour, Invalids and Social Affairs, some 38,300 people have been killed and 64,000 injured in accidents involving UXO and landmines since the Vietnam War ended in 1975.

Most are set off by children playing with small cluster bombs, or by adults seeking scrap metal and gun powder to sell.

Demining experts say that besides the often deadly consequences of contamination, there are social, economic and environmental costs relating to the loss of family bread winners and restrictions on land use.
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Old 01-29-2003, 11:08 AM   #2
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Land mines = good because they save US lives. They should, of course, be cleaned up after the campaign is over.
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Old 01-29-2003, 11:28 AM   #3
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If not for North Korea, I'd be willing to endorse a full ban.
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Old 01-29-2003, 02:28 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by elwoodblues
If not for North Korea, I'd be willing to endorse a full ban.
What purpose do land mines there serve that roll after roll of razor wire wouldn't fix. Instead of a mine field what's wrong with a field of razor wire end to end with coils of razor wire stacked up 6 feet high? I wouldn't dare to traverse either.
If I did you''d know I was coming and could open fire.
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Old 01-29-2003, 03:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by slept2long
What purpose do land mines there serve that roll after roll of razor wire wouldn't fix. Instead of a mine field what's wrong with a field of razor wire end to end with coils of razor wire stacked up 6 feet high? I wouldn't dare to traverse either.
If I did you''d know I was coming and could open fire.
This was one of my specialties in the army. Land mines play an integral part in the static defense of any given area and concertina wire is the last line of defense with tank ditches coming before that or to the sides.
Land mines are the first line and if one is expecting a vehicle led type of assault then anti-tank mines are laid out in a predetermined fashion and charted by the platoon sergeant and platoon leader.
There's usually some anti-personnel mines laid out as well because many times combat engineers will be called upon to run through the field first and drop ordinance in a path to explode the mines in place. This clears a lane for the armored vehicles to push through with out the danger of hitting a mine. So that's where the anti-personnels come into place (to take out the foot soldiers before they can effectively clear a path).
Just plain concertina wire can be easily breached by throwing a plank over the top of it (or in some cases, even a soldier!) and having foot soldiers run right through it.

They also make very effective booby traps. Mostly in the form of claymore mines which go off with the force of twenty 12 gauge shotguns. These types of mines are also used effectively by special ops troops and light infantry when by themselves and holding a postion.

I'm sure I'm leaving out some important details, but those are the basics. It's been a long time since I've worked with mines.

Landmines that are left behind and unaccounted for are indeed a horrible thing. Hopefully, there's been policy changes in most countries to account for them so that in the future innocent lives aren't taken.
But I just can't see the U.S. military not employing them anymore. They're too effective an asset to not use in combat.
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Old 01-29-2003, 03:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lamma
.....
But I just can't see the U.S. military not employing them anymore. They're too effective an asset to not use in combat.
So is a nuke. So are biological WMD's.

IOW, you're evading the point.

There is currentyl a large campaign to ban landmine usage, or at least to have them coumpulsorily made so that they self-destruct after a certain time, and to limit their usage as much as possible.
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Old 01-29-2003, 03:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by slept2long
What purpose do land mines there serve that roll after roll of razor wire wouldn't fix. Instead of a mine field what's wrong with a field of razor wire end to end with coils of razor wire stacked up 6 feet high? I wouldn't dare to traverse either.
If I did you''d know I was coming and could open fire.
The razor wire wouldn't cause me one bit of trouble--I would just walk where the tank had smashed it. It's not like they only have infantry.

Furthermore, razor wire is only one line and they know where it is. It doesn't slow them down otherwise. Land mines make a field that slows them down much more for the entire duration of their passage over it.

As for shooting at the guys crossing the wire--there would be a *LOT* of guns supporting such a crossing. You won't get off many shots.
Land mines, however, can't be suppressed like that. Paths can be cleared by things like a bangalore torpedo but that's slow--and while you're doing it you're duck soup for artillery (airburst fuzed it won't do too much to the minefield.)
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Old 01-29-2003, 03:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gurdur
So is a nuke. So are biological WMD's.

IOW, you're evading the point.

There is currentyl a large campaign to ban landmine usage, or at least to have them coumpulsorily made so that they self-destruct after a certain time, and to limit their usage as much as possible.
Comparing a nuke to a landmine is silly.

I'm not evading anything. I stated that there should be better regulation in regards to the use of landmines. I don't think anyone, including myself has stated otherwise.
Limiting their use would be like limiting bullets. Either you use them or you don't. When I say that, I'm thinking in terms of actual combat situations where things change from moment to moment. The idea that any field officer is going to do less than his best to protect a position is wishful thinking---"well, my soldiers all were killed and captured sir, but at least we didn't use any landmines".
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Old 01-29-2003, 04:06 PM   #9
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Built-in expiry dates seem the simplest way to minimise long-term �collateral damage� from landmines. Typically tactical mines would have shorter expiry dates than strategic landmines. I don�t see much preventing this, other than dollars of course.
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Old 01-29-2003, 04:16 PM   #10
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Limiting their use would be like limiting bullets. Either you use them or you don't.

The Geneva Convention does limit the use of bullets. Specifically:

"Rule 2: The use of expanding bullets or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering is prohibited.

An expanding bullet, upon impact, explodes within the body."

So it's not as simple as "either you use them or you don't." The use of mines could be limited (e.g. to certain types of mines, to self-destructing mines, etc.) while still allowing their use in critical applications.
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