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Old 07-26-2003, 12:10 PM   #21
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Default Re: Why are the Jews entitled to a country of their own...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
... but Native Americans are not?
So rewrite history and arrange people's lives according to the book of Jeremy.

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Old 07-26-2003, 12:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
In the US the Negroes suffered worse persecution. Do you think that the blacks are entitled to their own country?
Entitled or not, that is exactly what they got. More than a century before the Jews.

(BTW, how did they suffer worse persecution???)
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Old 07-26-2003, 01:35 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
......
Are they entitled to their own country? No! They are Europeans.
......
I shall immediately record this phrase into my List Of Astonishing Assertions Made On SecWeb That Make Me Laugh My Guts Out.


BTW, not only do you seem to have a bias against the Jews, but apart from your maladroit phrasing, you seem to have a bias against Europeans.

May I ever so humbly inform you that:
1) Many European cultural/national groups have countries of their own, despite being only Europeans
2) You ignored the fact I briefly mentioned on the other thread the genetic evidence that Ashekenazi share a common close ancestorship with the Sephardi... I mentioned mitochondrial and Y-chromosone evidence, and I'll also throw in that there's another study which shows close genetic connections between the Israelis (whether Ashkenazi or Sephardi) and Palestinians.
The fact you ignored that does not surprise me; you seem to only want things which will confirm your prejudice. A most unskeptical and unscientific stance of yours.
3) There are many Israeli Sephardi. Think about it.
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Old 07-26-2003, 01:41 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Hancock

So rewrite history and arrange people's lives according to the book of Jeremy.
Quote:
Originally posted by enfant terrible

Entitled or not, that is exactly what they got. More than a century before the Jews.
....
I am making both of you My Favourite Posters Of The Day.
John Hancock for a nice turn of critical phrase;
Enfant terrible for a knowledge of history (Liberia) way over and above the usual lamentable level of knowledge of history so often expressed on this board.
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Old 07-26-2003, 02:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant
...
Prior to the Zionist movement, the residents of what is now called the Middle East lived in comparative peace were they Muslim or Jew or Christian.
You know nothing about history. This statement is both malicious (blaming everything on the Jews) and completely wrong.
The Ottomans conquered much of the Middle East through immense bloodshed, and kept in power in dictatorial ways (I won't even mention the bloodthirsty periods before the Ottoman Empire, which at least kept some peace even if by force).
The Middle East was then largely conquered by Britain and France following WW 1. Again, bloodshed.
This was all way before the Zionist movement you love to dislike had any real effect at all on the region.
Quote:
The Ashkenazim were European. They were American, British, Polish, Russian, German etc.
You make me giggle.
I shall cite some genetic studies at the end of this post.
BTW, don't forget the large number of Israeli Sephardi.

Quote:
Yes, they were persecuted.
I am soooooooo glad you admit at least this much.
Quote:
Are they entitled to their own country? No! They are Europeans.
Apart from your prejudice, I've already dealt with this phrase in my post above.

Quote:
In the US the Negroes suffered worse persecution.
And yet again you are wrong.
The worst persecution blacks destined for North America faced was in the cross-Atlantic slaving ships (up to 50 % mortality rates). Compared to that, the suffering actually inside the States was smaller, and still does not compare with the Holocaust.
Quote:
Do you think that the blacks are entitled to their own country?
If they formed a seperate cultural group, yes.

Quote:
Have I a right to return to France to reclaim lost family lands? Of course not.
If you can show documented family ownership of land seized illegally, often land is reclaimable under law.
Examples include land and house claims following the fall of the Wall in East Germany (1989), ditto with Czechoslovakia and Poland.
Quote:
Yet with respect to the Jews, apparently this is totally acceptable. When it comes to ownership of the land.
How odd of God
To choose the Jews
---- Ogden Nash


I'ld love to know why you obssess about the Jews so much, especially the Ashkenazi.

I also love the way you decide from your American armchair just who is entitled to a country and who not.

____________

Now for (just some of) The Genetic Evidence (I'll add more later):
Quote:
A new study of interest has been published in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics (volume 69, number 5) on pages 1095-1112. Entitled "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" and authored by Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Bernd Brinkmann, Partha P. Majumder, Marina Faerman, and Ariella Oppenheim, the article discusses the results of a new genetic test on 526 persons (from the Ashkenazic Jewish, Sephardic Jewish, Kurdish Jewish, Muslim Kurdish, Jordanian Arab, Syrian Arab, Lebanese Arab, Israeli Arab, Palestinian Arab, and Negev Bedouin populations). The results were as follows:

Kurdish Jews and North African Jews are very closely related in their paternal lineages.
Kurdish Jews and North African Jews are less related to Ashkenazic Jews; the differences between the Sephardic/Oriental and Ashkenazic Jewish groups are described in the abstract as slight yet significant.
Ashkenazic Jews, while related to other Jewish groups, might also have a certain amount of European ancestry.
Jews are more closely related to Armenians, Kurds, and Anatolian Turks than to their Arab neighbors.
The haplogroup Eu 9 derived from northern Middle Easterners, while the haplogroup Eu 10 derived from more southerly Middle Easterners. Palestinian Arabs and Bedouins often belong to Eu 10 and could have substantial ancestry from the Arabian Peninsula.
Quote:
In the article "High-resolution Y chromosome haplotypes of Israeli and Palestinian Arabs reveal geographic substructure and substantial overlap with haplotypes of Jews" (Human Genetics 107(6), December 2000, pp. 630-641), Ariella Oppenheim, Almut Nebel, Dvora Filon, Mark G. Thomas, D. A. Weiss, M. Weale, and Marina Faerman presented evidence that Israeli Jews and Israeli/Palestinian Arabs are genetically similar but not identical. They suggested that these groups shared common origins, with somewhere between 70 to 80 percent of Jews and about 50 percent of Arabs sharing ancestry. The study clarifies the finding of Michael F. Hammer, Alan J. Redd, Elizabeth T. Wood, M. R. Bonner, Hamdi Jarjanazi, Tanya Karafet, Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti, Ariella Oppenheim, Mark A. Jobling, Trefor Jenkins, Harry Ostrer, and Batsheva Bonne'-Tamir in "Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes", Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences USA 97:12 (June 6, 2000) that Ashkenazi Jews are related through paternal ancestry to Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Anatolian Turks. Meanwhile, Aravinda Chakravarti, director of the McKusick-Nathans Institute of Genetic Medicine at Johns Hopkins University, found that the mutation DFNB1, which causes deafness, is found among Jews, Palestinian Arabs, and other Mediterranean populations.
Quote:
I would like to add to my remarks concerning the latest Jewish DNA study ["The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East" by Almut Nebel, Ariella Oppenheim, et al., The American Journal of Human Genetics 69:5 (November 2001): 1095-1112].

First, it says that Jews are most related to Kurds and secondarily to other northern Mediterranean groups, then to Arabs and Europeans.

Second, this study correlates nicely with the finding that the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) is found not only among Sephardic Jews and Ashkenazic Jews but also among Iraqi Kurds*1 and Armenians*2. Plus, Familial Mediterranean Fever is found among Ashkenazic Jews, Iraqi Jews, North African Jews, Armenians, Druze, Anatolian Turks, and Arabs*3.

Third, one point not fully clarified by Ha'aretz*4 and the Jerusalem Post*5 is the following quote directly from the Nebel, Oppenheim, et al. study, which shows that Ashkenazic Jews do have some non-Israelite elements (perhaps Khazarian and Slavic) in paternal lineages. The researchers wrote:

"Previous studies of Y chromosome polymorphisms reported a small European contribution to the Ashkenazi paternal gene pool (Santachiara-Benerecetti et al. 1993). In our sample, this low-level gene flow may be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes, which are found at elevated frequency (12.7%) in Ashkenazi Jews and which are very frequent in Eastern Europeans (54%-60%) (Semino et al. 2000). Alternatively, it is attractive to hypothesize that Ashkenazim with Eu 19 chromosomes represent descendants of the Khazars, originally a Turkic tribe from Central Asia, who settled in southern Russia and eastern Ukraine and converted en masse to Judaism in the ninth century of the present era, as described by Yehuda Ha Levi in 1140 AD (Dunlop 1954)."
This finding, along with Nathaniel Pearson's research (whose Ukrainian Jewish Y-chromosomal haplotype matched with an Uzbekistani Uzbek, an Uzbekistani Tajik, and two men from New Delhi in northern India), contradicts the assertion of other geneticists that Ashkenazim are not at all descended from Khazars and other European converts.
Quote:
Michael F. Hammer, Karl Skorecki, and their colleagues in their January 2, 1997 paper in Nature volume 385 entitled "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests" and that of Karl Skorecki, David Goldstein, et al. in Nature volume 394 entitled "Origins of Old Testament Priests" as well as the related studies with the Lemba tribe of South Africa (American Journal of Human Genetics volume 66) and Jewish populations around the world (PNAS volume 97 issue 12). These studies asserted that Ashkenazic Cohens are strongly related to Sephardic Cohens and that therefore these priestly Jewish communities have strong DNA relations

......In Hammer's 1997 studies of Jewish priests, some of the markers looked at were SRY4064 (464?), SRY 465, Tat, and sY81 polymorphisms. There were 6 markers studied which are known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH). [In "Y Chromosomes of Jewish Priests", it is stated that they tested for YAP+ (presence of Y Alu Polymorphic insert), YAP-, and DYS19 (known also as DYS394)]. Descendants of the Cohanim, as part of their haplotype, have YAP- and DYS19B.
Like I said, I'll add more later.
But let me add this for now: personally (unlike you, Pallant), I do not care in the slightest whether Jews are genetically related or not; I merely cite the evidence to debunk your claims.

The fact is, they form a distinct cultural/national group, and as Woodrow Wilson stated, the right to self-determination is a right for all cultural/national groups of a practical size.
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Old 07-26-2003, 02:26 PM   #26
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Talking Re: Why are the Jews entitled to a country of their own...

ooooooo, I forgot to respond to this one:

Quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Pallant

Why are the Jews entitled to a country of their own...but Native Americans are not?
Who says Native American Indians are not entitled to their own country ?

Certainly not me.
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Old 07-26-2003, 05:24 PM   #27
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Mr. Gurdur wrote

The fact is, they form a distinct cultural/national group, and as Woodrow Wilson stated, the right to self-determination is a right for all cultural/national groups of a practical size.




Would any body explain to me what are the cultural/national criteria in common between the Jewish flasha (Ethiopian Jews) and the polish Jews?


Omar
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Old 07-26-2003, 07:05 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gurdur
I am making both of you My Favourite Posters Of The Day.
John Hancock for a nice turn of critical phrase;
Enfant terrible for a knowledge of history (Liberia) way over and above the usual lamentable level of knowledge of history so often expressed on this board.
Thanks, but I wish current events didn't make it so easy to recall that fact.
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Old 07-26-2003, 07:21 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by sphinx wui

Mr. Gurdur wrote

The fact is, they form a distinct cultural/national group, and as Woodrow Wilson stated, the right to self-determination is a right for all cultural/national groups of a practical size.

Would any body explain to me what are the cultural/national criteria in common between the Jewish flasha (Ethiopian Jews) and the polish Jews?
uh, both groups are Jewish ?
And both groups recognise each other as close relations based on that fact ? And therefore both recognise each other as parts of the same overall cultural/national group ?

My word, that was a hard question.
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Old 07-26-2003, 07:27 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by enfant terrible

Thanks, but I wish current events didn't make it so easy to recall that fact.
Hell, I know what you mean, but I kind of guessed you would have known the history anyway, even if current events hadn't prompted attention.
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