Charlie

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Wow! Thank you for the kind words!
Charlie
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Opera Nut

RatBac, I would not make fun of your near death experience. That experience has shaped you and confirmed your faith. So be it. You have had a subjective experience that has given you reason to believe.

I was raised with college educated parents, went to the Presbyterian church, got my BA at an excellent Presbyterian college, just went along with it. That was before I met fundies. My parents died in 2000 and 2002 in their eighties, and when they died they did not believe in God, and neither did my mother's mother, who was a lifelong Scots-Irish Presbyterian.

I discovered the Unitarians in 1978 while finishing college.

Later in the 90s I decided, "OK, so if I become a Xtian and pray hard enough and do everything I am supposed to do, then I will be a member of this wonderful club, God will speak to me and tell me what to do, and life will be wonderful."

Well I did all that, got the full dunk baptism, prayed etc. The message I got was that I was a worthless piece of crap. Eventually these people telling me I was a hopeless sinner, drove me to suicidal ideation and an attempt to slash my wrists.

I checked myself into the local county funny farm, which was a joke of a treatment center. I wasn't psychotic or drug addicted. So they couldn't help me at all. The only way I saw to get away from all this horrible criticism was suicide. Hell didn't scare me after all the tearing down of me and verbal abuse I got. Hell would have been a welcome relief.

I asked them to help me find a job. Or pay me for what I was doing for the church. No such luck. They would not do anything to help us. So I decided that if god works thru his people on earth, then God wanted me to starve to death from unemployment.

I ran off screaming and have not set foot in a Xtian church again except for music concerts and funerals.

I almost became a Jew but found out it was like a country club, they didn't want you unless you had lots of money for your annual dues. I admire the culture and accomplishments of Jews, and the fact that it is ok to yell at God when you're mad!!

Now I am still an atheist but go to a buddhist temple occasionally.

Christians do not understand that I cannot force myself to havea subjective experience by praying and reading the bible. They tell me to "get right with God", "have a personal relationship with Jesus", yet they cannot tell me what I have to do to get there, or how it happens. I have not had any experience of God talking to me or guiding me in any way.

I cannot have faith without some sort of recognizable evidence that God exists.

I used to think the world is a random and scary place.
After several family catastrophes, I STILL think the world is a random and scary place, and I still have no evidence that God exists.

At least I'm not getting beaten up by my "fellow Xtians" who tell me I'm sinful evil and not anointed. I sat up and cried in choir practice and in church because of the power hungry preachers scaring people.

Read John Bradshaw's "Healing the Shame that Binds You". He is an ex-priest who talks about the psychological harm that addictive behavior gives, including religious obsession, and the unearned guilt adn shame of Christianity. Nobody should put up with this crap.

I could not understand why the educated black people in the churches I went to (My BF and I were the only whites there) would let the preacher tell them they were worthless sinners.

Now, if Whitey told them they were inferior, bad people, they would be rioting in the streets, and they would call it racism.
But if one of their own preachers tells them they are bad people, then that's ok.
I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT.


:banghead: <---banging head at educated blacks taking that crapola from preachers.

Rational BAC

Nope Charlie--

-I was a confirmed agnostic at the time. Did not even think about praying about anything at all and did not during that whole strange week. I was sick as a dog during and awfully damned sick for a few days afterward, but never at any time did I pray to anyone.

--All I know is that after that time in my life I knew that there was something else out there and that there was an afterlife. I definitely had the impression that it was a Christian happening but was not really certain.

--Did I say "halleluliah" "Oh my God I am saved?" Not at all.

However, it did get me thinking that I was no longer an agnostic,---

----- that I did really believe for the first time in my life in something spiritual, something different from what is considered (on this forum) "normal" rationality. Never have changed as far as that is concerned since the age of 27. I have known since that time that there was "something" out there.

--All that particular experience did was turn me from being an agnostic into a believer of some kind of Supreme Being and a believer in an afterlife. It took another experience over a decade later --a "born again" type experience, ---to make me a confirmed Christian. I never talk about that particular, much later experience.

Charlie

Eric, I owe you, and the other believers here, an apology! I certainly did not mean you personally nor the others here, are taking away my freedom to not believe. I see now that what I said was not a fair statement! I must be more careful. Sorry!

My contention is only with those believers who want to control all others (things like trying to bring christian prayer into public schools & public places and our Pres. Bush trying to bring more christian fundamentalist types into our government, the ones trying to make all people go along with the christian belief).

Also your comments about all the religions and all the gods was very well said and shows some merrit! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Charlie

Radorth

I would happily give my testimony if the skeptics were precluded from misrepresnting and mocking personal revelations, as they do almost daily with what little I have said. For this reason, I don't think some Christians will answer the call here.

Rad

wade-w

I don't see anyone else on this thread being mocked, Rad.

Charlie

Hi Opera Nut!
Thanks for sharing your experience! Of course, as an atheist myself, I agree with everything you said. I guess what strikes me most with your experience is that I've seen it before. You are not the only one who has gone from belief to nonbelief and have it be a very difficult and painful conversion. I was fortunate to not have to go through that, being a nonbeliever all my life. Based on your post it looks like you are finally free and feeling good with your new found ability to reason! I am also reading a similar book of a minister/precher who later becomes atheist. It is titled, "Lossing Faith in Faith" by Dan Barker. If you haven't already read it you may consider adding it to your library, or just check it out at your local library. And yes I still sometimes find myself "banging my head" at all the educated people taking crapola from preachers/religion. Although lately I have been trying to focus my energies on understanding human behavior, specifically "How" and "Why" people believe.. the "Power of Belief".
Charlie

Charlie

Thanks Rational BAC! So would it be fair to say that you became a believer because of a personal experience that you had? I think this makes sense to me and there are probably a lot of people that have some sort of a life changing experience and then become a believer. So if I were to probe a little further (still not trying to turn this into a debate, just trying to learn), I would be curious as to how your personal experience lead you to christianity.. how did you connect the experience to christianity? (If you are unable to fully respond without revealing your personal experience, then please do not respond. I respect your privacy as you have indicated this was a personal experience). My assumption would be that because you had an awareness of christianity from your childhood, or perhaps from christian friends later in life, that you used this awareness of a belief system to make the connection? I would further speculate that the difference with belief and nonbelief would be that when I have life changing experiences, as a nonbeliever, I tend to go toward the path of reason instead of faith. I assume that believers would tend to go towards the path of faith/belief instead of reason. Are my assumptions on target? Although I guess I have to be careful using the word "reason" because am now thinking that a believer also believes that their belief system is completely reasonable, right? So this becomes more complex and goes back to my quest to better understand human behavior and our ability to believe!

I can accept that you are a good person and you believe. I'm sure you and many other believers can also accept that I am a good person and I do not blieve. I think we all can respect each other to this degree. It's our nature to want to prove our belief or nonbelief, thus proving the other wrong, that get's us into fighting debates. So rather than trying to prove my nonbelief, I'm just trying to learn from believers how they became believers.
Charlie

Charlie

Hi Radorth!
I agree with you and I hope I have not come across this way. I wasn't sure what to expect with regard to how many Christians would respond to this thread. I figured some might even think it was a trap, to try and get them to reveal their beliefs and then skeptics responding just as you said mocking perhaps even laughing at them. We all know this is an extremely sensitive subject. Perhaps that's why we are all here? It's hard for believers/christians and nonbelievers/skeptics to engage each other regarding their beliefs or nonbelief, while each thinks the other to be so wrong. I'm trying to look at it more as a fascination or a mystery to me as an atheist. I will admit, I find it fascinating, a mystery, as to how anyone can believe religion. I also see that a religious person/christian may have the same fascination how anyone could not believe! No one can guarantee that this thread will not turn into a frenzied debate simply because of human behavior. Some will want to be confrontational.. some may simply appear to be in attack mode without even realizing it. Debate can easily occur. For example, If I see a believer trying to mix "belief" with "reason" I will have a very hard time not engaging a debate. I do this because to me reason and rational thinking is completely different/separate from believing/religion. I have already exhibited some debate here in this thread even though I am trying not to. It's difficult not to. I'm just trying to learn more about human behavior and the power of belief.
Also, Rational BAC had a good point opening it up to everyone believers/christians AND nonbelievers/skeptics. I originally thought about setting this thread up that way, but I didn't think christians would want to know, or even care, how atheists, skeptics, nonbelievers became that way. This may have been an ignorant move on my part. However at the time, and as an atheist, my main objective was to learn more about believers/Christians.
Sincerely,
Charlie

Rational BAC

Charlie---

Can't explain rationally why I thought my first experience with "near death" was a Christian experience. It just seemed so at the time. And even I had doubts at the time about that part of it.

All I knew for sure was at that time, and not to get overly tiresome about this part, was that there was much more to our existence than what we see smell and hear with our senses and much more to "knowledge" than what we think to be knowledge.

That part of it has lived with me for over 30 years. I know that there is "something" out there, and that there is a life after death.

The rest of it---much later on, becoming a "born again" Chistian------I just keep to myself. == My personal experience during a very difficult time in my life. I choose not to share it.

I am NOT an evangelist---do not even believe in proseletising---a 2000 year old anachronism, --completely unnecessary in this day and age when we are OVERLOADED with information of all kinds. There is no lack of communicating the Christian message today as there was 2000 years ago.

-----------For everyone else in the world, if you want to find Christianity, you will not necessarily find it-----Thinking of Opera Nut's post in this --- try as hard as you may. BUT---If Christianity wants to find YOU, you have not a prayer against it to prevent it.

Opera Nut has probably found the best way for her. And I applaud her for that. And, even if she turns out to be wrong and there is a Christian God, then I think she will be kicked lovingly into heaven. -----------Just my personal opinion.

Just my 2 cents. All personal and very irrational, I will openly admit.