Freethought & Rationalism Archive

NialScorva · 03-31-2003, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakpo

I was clearly arguing that if the Civil War was to be seen in terms of fighting for or against freedom the Union would be on side with freedom. I'm fully aware that the war was fought to prevent succesful secession from the union after disputes regarding tariffs, slavery, trade, and the extent of individual states rights and that furthermore, as in many wars, many of the individual soldiers fought for reasons other than the official ones. Please don't be one of those annoying people who thinks they've learned the "real" causes of the Civil War and feels the need to jump in and correct people whenever they suggest slavery was an important issue or discuss that aspect of the war.

Furthermore there were Union soldiers primarily motivated by the abolition issue.

The only reason that the Union had black regiments is because they wanted the bodies to throw on the battlefield. I agree that the south was reprehensible, however I think the north was just as disgusting but more subtle about it. From what I've read, the common attitude was "free them, but don't send them up here" because of the difference in economies.

Arguing about who had the moral high ground on the slavery issue in the Civil War is like arguing about whether Jeffrey Dahmer would make a better neighbor than Ted Bundy.

Grumpy · 03-31-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sakpo
I was clearly arguing that if the Civil War was to be seen in terms of fighting for or against freedom the Union would be on side with freedom.

I can agree with this. But what I had in mind (but failed to say) was that guys with Confederate battle flags on the bumpers of their pickups had better be careful about using the "soldiers dying for your freedom" argument.

Apart from that, was there ever a danger that the Southern Confederacy would stifle civil rights in the rest of the Union? If Ft. Sumter could've been ceded peacefully, there probably wouldn't have been a war at all. But this is straying waaay off topic.

I'll just add that the even more specious argument (which I heard earlier today) is that our men (and women!) in uniform are fighting & dying TODAY for your freedom. Because, see, ol' Saddam was gonna kick down yer door and take away your voter registration card.

crownboy · 03-31-2003, 07:27 PM

I don't have any audio on my computer right now, so could someone kindly tell me what the J-Lo video clip is all about?

Fox News is a pathetic excuse for a news network. It's quite ironic that the people on that network would accuse the New York Times of being some sort of left wing outfit, when that network is nothing but a propaganda piece for the right (oh yeah, they have Alan Combs on their network. That makes it better

. Actually, an even sadder fact about the show is that Combs still sounds better than Hannity even though Combs seems to be trying to be deliberately bad, and Hannity is clearly "the man"). MTV news is more serious than them

.

Jesse · 03-31-2003, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crownboy
I don't have any audio on my computer right now, so could someone kindly tell me what the J-Lo video clip is all about?

There's a transcript here:

http://www.salon.com/people/col/reit/2002/11/12/nptues/

ajm51987 · 03-31-2003, 08:02 PM

While in a conversation with my friend

Me: Fox News? Dont watch that! Watch MSNBC or CNN!

Friend: Im not going to watch thal liberal trash! What are you a socialist?!

I kid you not on that last part, I laughed so loud the teacher yelled at me!

orac · 03-31-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grumpy
Maybe this deserves a thread of its own, but...

Exactly how many times have soldiers fought direct threats to basic civil liberties? Or, how many times have constitutional rights come under physical attack?

There's a far more important question:

If you're not allowed to criticise the government's military policy, exactly what did those soldiers fight to protect?

"How dare you exercise the freedom that our soldiers fought to protect?" is not a particularly impressive attitude.

03-31-2003, 08:02 PM	#25
ajm51987 Regular Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seattle, USA Posts: 245	A funny Fox News story While in a conversation with my friend Me: Fox News? Dont watch that! Watch MSNBC or CNN! Friend: Im not going to watch thal liberal trash! What are you a socialist?! I kid you not on that last part, I laughed so loud the teacher yelled at me!

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03-31-2003, 07:27 PM	#23
crownboy Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NYC, New York Posts: 114	I don't have any audio on my computer right now, so could someone kindly tell me what the J-Lo video clip is all about? Fox News is a pathetic excuse for a news network. It's quite ironic that the people on that network would accuse the New York Times of being some sort of left wing outfit, when that network is nothing but a propaganda piece for the right (oh yeah, they have Alan Combs on their network. That makes it better . Actually, an even sadder fact about the show is that Combs still sounds better than Hannity even though Combs seems to be trying to be deliberately bad, and Hannity is clearly "the man"). MTV news is more serious than them .

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