Pat Kelly

http://www.unh.edu/ccrc/New_Releases_Pubs.html

Educate yourself a little and then come back to challenge my claim you are not truly concerned for the wellbeing of children. The very fact I must direct you in this says all one really needs to say. If there was any genuine concern or even interest on your part you would already have sought out knowledge of the full scope of what really harms children. Not just the sensationalized sex flowing from a ratings hungry media.

I have never stated consent should not be a necessary component of all sex within a civilized society. What I have done is dispute the irrational claim children are any less able to consent to sex than adults or whenever a child engages in sex with an adult they could not have done so with consent because of some alleged incapacity that says only adults are capable of consenting to sex. That is unless you define “consent” as some delusional understanding that all sex must be experienced in the same manor as that experienced by adults. Any buffoon should be able to reason no child is capable of consenting to function at an adult level within a sexual interaction. However, this does not rule out the rather obvious fact children do make conscious decisions to engage in sex as a child everyday with a host of potential partners including some who are much older than they are.

A reality drawn from a mind that is willing to question instead of one obsessed in irrational fears and driven to blindly defend.

Pat Kelly

Well Helen if you are unable to rationally move beyond the idea nudity is a bad thing which should be hidden how could you ever expect yourself to develop rational views of sex?

ju'iblex

Nude children isn't the issue on the site, it's the context in which they are being viewed. I could see a child on television, naked, foraging the dumps in India, or a newborn being bathed by it's parents. This would not be a problem to me or probably anyone here. Also, if that's what your website had contained, there would have been no problem. The problem with your website was the sneaking implications of "you cannot be a freethinker unless you can agree that children should be treated the same as adults, sexually". And this problem was further compounded by the images of young children with sexual overtones to them.

It's not the nudity, it's the context.

yguy

Sorry I missed this earlier. I don't get your drift here.

Dominus Paradoxum

Educate myself about what? Is there a certain article on that site you wish me to read, because as far as I can see there is nothing there which is relevant to our discussion.

No, but you never said that it should, either; and your manor leads me to think otherwise. Tell me, if I may be so blunt, just what is wrong with rape in your opinion? If sexs really an irresistable urge that all humans are subject to the majority of the time, how can you blame a rapist for acting on their instinct? After all, mightn't we say that the "victim" suffers no real ( physical) harm, and that mental trauma only affects them because of our society's irrational views on the subject? After all, what could possibly be intrinscially bad about sex? Just showing you where your argument might might lead. And I would like to know just what, if anything, is wrong with this chain of reasoning from your perspective.

Incidentally, you didn't respond to my characterization of your idea of a utopia. Just what do you think would a "rational" society that was in touch with the realities of sex look like?

Well, there's this funny thing we puritans call maturity. Most children don't have it. And a lot of children also don't going around looking to have sex with adults. Usually those "relationships" are instigated by the older party. Do you have any idea why that might be?

I'm guessing that you happen to be card-carrying member of nambla. Am I right?

Pat Kelly

I see... You are open minded when it comes to child nudity except when it is related to discussions dealing with sexuality. Nudity is ok. Sexual discussions like the ones we are having here are ok. Just do not put the two of them together at the same time... I think I understanding your reasoning though I can find no logic to support it.

ju'iblex

thanks for twisting my words. let's see what little i can undo from this knot.

I have no problems discussing sexuality. If i did, I would have sent this topic to elsewhere, but instead I gave it a chance for civil rational discussion. I also have no problems discussing infanticide, genocide, eugenics, anything. Discussion however is not synonymous with advocation. Your site is percieved to be an advocation of child-sex, as are your views, you have crossed the line of discussion.

And I'm not sure if you already have, but i would dearly love you to define at what age a child is able to consent.

Edited to add: When discussing sexuality, there is no need to put sexual pictures within the topic. We're adults, we know what we're discussing, if we needed diagrams and visual examples I believe we wouldn't be here.

Pat Kelly

If you are posing such questions you likely need to read them all.

You seem to equate the concept of rape with the concept of children and adults interacting sexually. To draw such a relationship you obviously have little real information to go on. There is a big difference between rape and sex even when that sex involves children and adults. Please explain how you rationally equate the portion of childhood sexuality that occasionally involves sexual interactions with adults to rape.

The only reality based relationship between maturity and sexual behavior is the type of sexual behavior. Maturity is not a delimiter between sex and no sex contrary to what you seem to infer.

I have seen no data to support such an assumption and would be curious to know your source. If you are implying more adults are attracted to children than children to adults I see no relevance in this to the idea adults and children should never be permitted to interact sexually.

Not that it is any of your business or in any way relevant to the discussion; I am married with two children. I am also not a member of nambla though I certainly agree with such groups that there is a witch hunt underway for those sexually attracted to children. And you?

Pat Kelly

Whose line are you referring to? Have you taken it upon yourself to speak for the majority and even if you have, who says the majority’s views have any relevance to an accurate interpretation of reality? I, through my website have taken a position that current restrictive social attitudes towards sex and many other elements within society do not accurately reflect either the true state of the human animal or what is the best set of social rules we might live under. I have used logic to challenge irrationalism wherever I have found it and have not swayed from this course just because some people may be sensitive about dealing with the realities of sex.

Before I bother to answer this please establish a logical foundation that shows age to be a legitimate delimiter of which sexual behaviors people should or should not be allowed to engage in. In other words, what does age have to do with consent to engage in sexual behavior?

Then throw out your TV and turn on your radio. Pictures are obviously a powerful medium of communication with far more resolution than written words. Ever hear the saying a picture is worth a thousand words. Where do you get such ideas? Are you making this up as you go along?

Dominus Paradoxum

You have failed to adress my question. What is wrong with that chain of reasoning?

You also failed to adress this: :"Incidentally, you didn't respond to my characterization of your idea of a utopia. Just what do you think would a "rational" society that was in touch with the realities of sex look like?"

I'll take it from these rather tortured sentences that you think maturity has noting to do with the ability of someone to consent to sex. If that is the case, I'm afraid you'll have to more to back up your position than to merely assert its truth.

Moreover, if you want to establish what these "realities" are, and if you seriously expect us to believe that children would want to initiate sex with adults, you're more than welcome to provide us with all the data you can find, and we can examine each piece of evidence in turn. Until then, we're not buying it.