Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cricket · 02-03-2003, 01:50 PM

Mageth, I'm trying to tell you what children may feel at a time like this. I'm telling you this because this reminds me of what happened to our family years ago when my siblings and I suddenly lost a parent, and how it felt to hear the words of some of the "well-wishers."

If you don't want to believe me, fine. If you think it may be different for these families, fine. Maybe it is. We don't know. Bush doesn't either. That's why it would have been better to say the right things.

It's true that it would make atheists look like asses to make a big fuss about it, which is why I've said nothing about it anywhere but here. We shouldn't; the families shouldn't. btw the families feeling offended is not a concern right now - I doubt they have the emotional energy to waste on being "offended." I'm more concerned about the kids feeling devastated, and made to feel more miserable by others' thoughtless remarks.

cricket · 02-03-2003, 02:00 PM

Quote:

We don't know if any of the astronauts, or their family members, were atheists, or if they were, if they are so hypersensitive to their atheism that they would be deeply offended by Bush's comments at the time of their loss.

You are missing the point.

"hypersensitive to their atheism"?

These kids aren't considering themselves atheist right now (if in fact that's what they are).

They are not worried about Bush saying the appropriate thing to them as atheist, Jewish, Christian, or whatever.

They are not worried about whether his words are offensive.

They are worried about their parent, especially if they are agnostic and parent was agnostic or atheist. They are worried about whether he or she is still on fire.

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 03:15 PM

You mean a child may be worried that their parent went to hell, based on Bush's remarks? I don't really see how Bush's remarks could lead a child to that conclusion, but then again I've never been in that situation.

Other than that, I generally agree with your last two posts. I too would have preferred Bush to have made his remarks less religious, to "say the right things" as you mentioned, or at least said something more inclusive along the lines of what I mentioned earlier: "For those of us that take comfort in religion..."

Sabine Grant · 02-03-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
You mean a child may be worried that their parent went to hell, based on Bush's remarks? I don't really see how Bush's remarks could lead a child to that conclusion, but then again I've never been in that situation.

Other than that, I generally agree with your last two posts. I too would have preferred Bush to have made his remarks less religious, to "say the right things" as you mentioned, or at least said something more inclusive along the lines of what I mentioned earlier: "For those of us that take comfort in religion..."

I agree with you Mageth. As a theist I do wish he would aknowledge the multi culturalism of this country. And that little introduction would have been perfect.

cricket · 02-03-2003, 03:48 PM

Quote:

You mean a child may be worried that their parent went to hell, based on Bush's remarks?

Not if the family is atheist... not if the family is Christian, and so was the astronaut... but for all the people in-between, yes, I think it's a reinforcement of their worst fear.

For agnostics and their families, heaven-talk does more harm than good. Astronauts kids are hurting and are overly-sensitive, and will be that way for a long time. If their parent wasn't a Christian, they know that. They know that if indeed there is a heaven, then their parent is in hell. They know it isn't the case that all the astronauts are in heaven. They know if there exists Bush's heaven, then their own mother/father continues to burn.

There are presumably so many appropriate things to say about the life of the deceased � their legacy, integrity, bravery, place in history, etc. There�s no good reason for outsiders to speculate on the whereabouts of the dead.

CALDONIA · 02-03-2003, 04:45 PM

What George Bush meant during the 2000 campaign:

"I am not a divider, I am an exploiter."

Mageth · 02-03-2003, 04:51 PM

I'm sorry, but I still don't see how Bush's very generic religious remarks (which, BTW, didn't mention heaven or hell (only the vague "home"), or any particular mechanism (e.g. Christianity) of getting to either one) indicate that he believes or is asserting any of the astronauts that weren't christian went to hell, or how a child hearing his remarks would come to that conclusion.

What am I missing?

Radorth · 02-03-2003, 05:32 PM

I dunno. A rational opponent?

Rad

Amie · 02-03-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cricket
Astronauts kids are hurting and are overly-sensitive, and will be that way for a long time. If their parent wasn't a Christian, they know that. They know that if indeed there is a heaven, then their parent is in hell. They know it isn't the case that all the astronauts are in heaven. They know if there exists Bush's heaven, then their own mother/father continues to burn.

...in the midst of being plagued by an unbelievable amount of pain I somehow doubt they would give a rats ass what the president had to say regarding any religiously stemmed statements...

Mageth: the rational voice of reason in this thread, IMO...

cricket · 02-03-2003, 05:45 PM

Everybody dead is in Bush's heaven! Even the ones his god says will burn in hell! Shush, little child, we know your father accepted christ because everybody does DON'T BE SILLY.

If he didn't do it before you know he did it at the time of the explosion. Anybody would. Hush, hush.

Amie, if you don't get it, you don't. Forget it.

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02-03-2003, 01:50 PM	#81
cricket Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St Louis MO USA Posts: 1,188	Mageth, I'm trying to tell you what children may feel at a time like this. I'm telling you this because this reminds me of what happened to our family years ago when my siblings and I suddenly lost a parent, and how it felt to hear the words of some of the "well-wishers." If you don't want to believe me, fine. If you think it may be different for these families, fine. Maybe it is. We don't know. Bush doesn't either. That's why it would have been better to say the right things. It's true that it would make atheists look like asses to make a big fuss about it, which is why I've said nothing about it anywhere but here. We shouldn't; the families shouldn't. btw the families feeling offended is not a concern right now - I doubt they have the emotional energy to waste on being "offended." I'm more concerned about the kids feeling devastated, and made to feel more miserable by others' thoughtless remarks.

02-03-2003, 03:15 PM	#83
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	You mean a child may be worried that their parent went to hell, based on Bush's remarks? I don't really see how Bush's remarks could lead a child to that conclusion, but then again I've never been in that situation. Other than that, I generally agree with your last two posts. I too would have preferred Bush to have made his remarks less religious, to "say the right things" as you mentioned, or at least said something more inclusive along the lines of what I mentioned earlier: "For those of us that take comfort in religion..."

02-03-2003, 04:45 PM	#86
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	What George Bush meant during the 2000 campaign: "I am not a divider, I am an exploiter."

02-03-2003, 04:51 PM	#87
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm sorry, but I still don't see how Bush's very generic religious remarks (which, BTW, didn't mention heaven or hell (only the vague "home"), or any particular mechanism (e.g. Christianity) of getting to either one) indicate that he believes or is asserting any of the astronauts that weren't christian went to hell, or how a child hearing his remarks would come to that conclusion. What am I missing?

02-03-2003, 05:32 PM	#88
Radorth Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,872	I dunno. A rational opponent? Rad

02-03-2003, 05:45 PM	#90
cricket Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St Louis MO USA Posts: 1,188	Everybody dead is in Bush's heaven! Even the ones his god says will burn in hell! Shush, little child, we know your father accepted christ because everybody does DON'T BE SILLY. If he didn't do it before you know he did it at the time of the explosion. Anybody would. Hush, hush. Amie, if you don't get it, you don't. Forget it.

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