Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pogue · 03-29-2003, 03:31 PM

Quote:

[i] But did the serpent lie? They did not die after eating the fruit that God said was poisoned. [/B]

Ummm.. Yes.... they did.. Unless they are living in the trailer park down the road in the rural town of Lakeland, where I live.. I don't read anywhere in the Bible where there was a plan for Adam and Eve to die, that is, until they partook of the forbidden fruit.

Pogue

HelenM · 03-29-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
(HelenM): That's virtually impossible unless we are to say nothing about the passage and it's implications. When you assert they didn't know about good and evil you are going beyond the text, imo, because the text doesn't spell out that they didn't.
(Fr Andrew): The text says fairly plainly that God didn't want Adam (at least) to have knowledge of good and evil. The implication is thus quite strong that Adam was unaware of those concepts.
There are many things that scripture doesn't spell out, HelenM, but as a "Back-to-the-Bible" Christian it would seem that you wouldn't be free to speculate about what isn't there in black and white.

Yes but, what Scripture doesn't say one has to speculate about.

Quote:

All God said--according to the Bible--is that Adam must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Anything beyond that--any scenerios in which God lectures Adam with respect to right and wrong, and Original Sin being passed on forever--is non-Biblical speculation. Isn't it?

Yes it is - but your theories are as speculative as mine. That's all I'm saying. I speculate giving God the benefit of the doubt and you speculate in ways that do not give Him the benefit of the doubt.

If you can prove your speculations are more valid than mine I invite you to do so.

Quote:

(HelenM): I believe he said 'fleshly pleasures' but I don't believe without seeing it that he thought it was the enjoyment of sex that passed on original sin. My guess -without seeing his words in context - is that he meant the act of sex, which is enjoyable, did. Those are two very different things.
(Fr Andrew): Augustine did not think that the act of sex was, or should be, enjoyable...it was to be engaged in, reluctantly, for procreation. To do so for pleasure, married or not, was to compound a sin.

I'm still waiting for direct quotes.

Quote:

To the proponents of an early form of the rhythm method, he said:
"The birth of children is what you most abhor in marriage, and thus you turn your "hearers" into adulterers of their own wives, when they are on the alert to see that their wives do not conceive...They wish to have no children, for whose sake alone marriages are contracted. Why then aren't you the sort of people who forbid marriage...if you are trying to take away what constitutes marriage in the first place? For if that is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, marriage beds are bordellos, and fathers-in-law are pimps"--Against Faustus 15,7
And:
"It is impermissable and shameful to practice intercourse with one's wife while preventing the conception of children."--[The Adulterous Relations[/i] 2, 12
And:
"Marital intercourse, even with one's legitimate spouse, is forbidden and immoral, if the awakening of new life is prevented."--Casti connubbi, 1930

Can you really not see that not one of these quotes supports your assertions that Augustine thought sex should not be enjoyable? Have you misunderstood him or do you have other quotes in mind that you haven't shared, which do actually substantiate your claims about what Augustine believed about sex?

Quote:

One of the links that Sojourner posted refers to a book by Uta Ranke-Heinemann called Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven. It's really a good read and will give you an understanding of the role that the Catholic church has played in our sexual attitudes.

...which is not my church and which has had nothing to do with my attitudes about sex; and which has had little, that I can discern, to do with the attitudes of conservative Christians I have heard teaching about sex.

Quote:

In fact, if members of your particlar "Back-to-the-Bible" sect have somehow managed to avoid that cultural influence, they're really quite unique.

Actually they aren't. If you think so then evidently you know little about what conservative Christians teach about sex. All your comments about Christians and sex seem to be based on the Catholic church, which is entirely different from the conservative Christian subculture I've been in for almost two decades now.

Helen

Fr.Andrew · 03-29-2003, 07:00 PM

Thanks for the chat!

HelenM · 03-30-2003, 04:20 AM

You're welcome.

Helen

GeoTheo · 03-30-2003, 02:29 PM

I just wanted to say that I agree with Helen about the sex thing. Conservative Christians do like sex! There are even books for newly weds on how to have really good sex. I would even go so far as to say that if you aren't a Christian in a committed married relationship and you are having sex you probably aren't enjoying it as much as many Bible believing Christians. I base that on a comparison of my sex life before and after I became a Christian.

Bubba · 03-30-2003, 04:29 PM

Glad to see you back Geo-

I have friends who are conservative Christians who have good sex and I have infidel friends who have good sex-I'm not sure it's related to theological belief. However, I could be wrong

Bubba

Bubba · 03-30-2003, 04:31 PM

Helen and Fr. Andrew-enjoyed your exchange-

Bubba

Fr.Andrew · 03-30-2003, 04:32 PM

(GeoTheo): I just wanted to say that I agree with Helen about the sex thing. Conservative Christians do like sex! There are even books for newly weds on how to have really good sex.

(Fr Andrew): I don't dispute HelenM's testimony. Or yours. Even Catholics have liberalized, to a degree, their attitudes on sexuality. But it's been a relatively recent phenomenon after a long, hard struggle against the influence of St Augustine...who pretty much wrote the book on Original Sin.
Conservative, Bible-believing Christians haven't always supplied newlyweds with books on great sex. Trust me.

HelenM · 03-31-2003, 04:02 AM

Thanks Bubba and GeoTheo.

I took a lay counseling course on video (by the American Association of Christian Counselors, which is a conservative Christian organization) a few years ago. It included two videos by a Christian sex therapist Doug Rosenau. I was very impressed by him. (He began with some comments about his own life and how taken aback his parents were when he decided to become a Christian sex therapist instead of a missionary

)

I was looking to see if there was much about him online and I found this on the Focus on the Family website which, to be honest, surprised me in how explicit it was...(I mean, it surprised me that Focus on the Family would have a page that explicit on their site)

Erectile Dysfunction: No Laughing Matter

Anyway it is one example to back up what I said about contemporary conservative Christian attitudes about sex in marriage.

Note that for many people this page is about non-procreative sex since they will be beyond the child-bearing years.

Helen

MortalWombat · 03-31-2003, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GeoTheo
I just wanted to say that I agree with Helen about the sex thing. Conservative Christians do like sex!

The Onion seems to agree with you. Although I'm not sure if that minister is conservative or not: they didn't say if he was Missouri Synod or ELCA.

03-29-2003, 07:00 PM	#33
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	for HelenM Thanks for the chat!

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03-30-2003, 04:20 AM	#34
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	You're welcome. Helen

03-30-2003, 02:29 PM	#35
GeoTheo Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Bemidji Posts: 1,197	I just wanted to say that I agree with Helen about the sex thing. Conservative Christians do like sex! There are even books for newly weds on how to have really good sex. I would even go so far as to say that if you aren't a Christian in a committed married relationship and you are having sex you probably aren't enjoying it as much as many Bible believing Christians. I base that on a comparison of my sex life before and after I became a Christian.

03-30-2003, 04:29 PM	#36
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Glad to see you back Geo- I have friends who are conservative Christians who have good sex and I have infidel friends who have good sex-I'm not sure it's related to theological belief. However, I could be wrong Bubba

03-30-2003, 04:31 PM	#37
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	Helen and Fr. Andrew-enjoyed your exchange- Bubba

03-30-2003, 04:32 PM	#38
Fr.Andrew Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Betsy's Bluff, Maine Posts: 540	(GeoTheo): I just wanted to say that I agree with Helen about the sex thing. Conservative Christians do like sex! There are even books for newly weds on how to have really good sex. (Fr Andrew): I don't dispute HelenM's testimony. Or yours. Even Catholics have liberalized, to a degree, their attitudes on sexuality. But it's been a relatively recent phenomenon after a long, hard struggle against the influence of St Augustine...who pretty much wrote the book on Original Sin. Conservative, Bible-believing Christians haven't always supplied newlyweds with books on great sex. Trust me.

03-31-2003, 04:02 AM	#39
HelenM Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Ill Posts: 6,577	Thanks Bubba and GeoTheo. I took a lay counseling course on video (by the American Association of Christian Counselors, which is a conservative Christian organization) a few years ago. It included two videos by a Christian sex therapist Doug Rosenau. I was very impressed by him. (He began with some comments about his own life and how taken aback his parents were when he decided to become a Christian sex therapist instead of a missionary ) I was looking to see if there was much about him online and I found this on the Focus on the Family website which, to be honest, surprised me in how explicit it was...(I mean, it surprised me that Focus on the Family would have a page that explicit on their site) Erectile Dysfunction: No Laughing Matter Anyway it is one example to back up what I said about contemporary conservative Christian attitudes about sex in marriage. Note that for many people this page is about non-procreative sex since they will be beyond the child-bearing years. Helen

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