Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Morat · 01-03-2003, 01:20 PM

This probably isn't the right forum, but I can't really figure out what is. And since he said it in reference to the Civil War, well....

Anyways, feel free to fling it where it belongs. I'm only asking here, because I know quite a few of you have really good access to this sort of material, and can probably find answers where I can't:

Part of an article by a Prof. Williams on the Civil War (quoted in a thread I was watching elsewhere):

Quote:

Blacks Who Fought For the South

Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's "liberty-dispensing troops" marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: "The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15." As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, "Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood."
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, "These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live." Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: "to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded."
Many knew Lincoln had little love for enslaved blacks and didn't wage war against the South for their benefit. Lincoln made that plain, saying, "I will say, then, that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race." The very words of his 1863 Emancipation Proclamation revealed his deceit and cunning; it freed those slaves held "within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States." It didn't apply to slaves in West Virginia and areas and states not in rebellion. Like Gen. Ulysses Grant's slaves, they had to wait for the 13th Amendment, Grant explained why he didn't free his slaves earlier, saying, "Good help is so hard to come by these days."
Lincoln waged war to "preserve the Union". The 1783 peace agreement with England (Treaty of Paris] left 13 sovereign nations. They came together in 1787, as principals, to create a federal government, as their agent, giving it specific delegated authority -specified in our Constitution. Principals always retain the right to fire their agent. The South acted on that right when it seceded. Its firing on Fort Sumter, federal property, gave Lincoln the pretext needed for the war.
The War Between the States, through force of arms, settled the question of secession, enabling the federal government to run roughshod over states' rights specified by the Constitution's 10th Amendment.
Sons of Confederate Veterans is a group dedicated to giving a truer account of the War Between the States. I'd like to see it erect on Richmond's Monument Avenue a statue of one of the thousands of black Confederate soldiers.

The quote I'm curious about is bolded. Can anyone source it? I was hoping to see the quote in full context.

IvanK · 01-03-2003, 02:29 PM

I don't have my favorite reference, Jordan's Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia, to hand at the moment (here's a review) but will check on it this weekend. Generally speaking, African-Americans on whatever side had varying reasons for doing what they did during the Civil War, as did whites. To make the blanket statement that African-Americans who chose to aid the Confederacy did so strictly in hopes of some kind of betterment during or afterwards would not be completely accurate.

And to charge Lincoln, or in any case Lincoln alone, with "deceit and cunning" for being less than enthusiastic about racial equality in the 1860s is to commit the historical sin of presentism. Almost no one -- certainly very few whites, even those who were ardent supporters of the Union and the war -- thought the races could or should be equal. The Civil War was (eventually at least) about ending slavery. The struggle for equal rights took another hundred or so years, and is still being waged today. Personally, I'd think "deceit and cunning" would better fit those who participated in or sent young men to war to defend a scandalous, immoral trade in human lives rather than those who tried to stop it.

If the Sons of Confederate Veterans want to inflict yet another monument on Richmond, perhaps one to the many Africans who died on the slave ships, the many who were worked and neglected to death on plantations or the few who rose up in attempts to gain their freedom by force might offer a more appropriate and "truer account" of history. But I'm not holding my breath for a statue of Lincoln.

Beelzebub · 01-03-2003, 04:06 PM

I've also heard about blacks serving in the Confederate Army before. One thing I noticed was that , at the most, 93,000 served in all capacities. I wonder how many were actual combat troops? I'm also fairly sure (from memory) that over 500,000 served in the Union Army and some all black battalions fought towards the end of the war, Cold Harbour comes to mind .

Loren Pechtel · 01-03-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by Morat
The quote I'm curious about is bolded. Can anyone source it? I was hoping to see the quote in full context.

Hint: When faced with a quote like this, ^c it, go to www.google.com and paste it then put quotes around it. You're quite likely to find what you are after, namely this

Morat · 01-04-2003, 08:49 AM

Yeah I saw that. It's possible I'm merely misreading the quote, and that that is the full quote (the ellipses may indicate a pause in speech or original punctuation or something).

But that is my question: Is that the full quote? In what context did Forrest say/write this statement? When/where was the statement made?

I'm basically trying to source the quote, and determine if it's a full quote. Specifically, the Forrest quote. (The one that is bolded).

Loren Pechtel · 01-04-2003, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morat
Yeah I saw that. It's possible I'm merely misreading the quote, and that that is the full quote (the ellipses may indicate a pause in speech or original punctuation or something).

But that is my question: Is that the full quote? In what context did Forrest say/write this statement? When/where was the statement made?

I'm basically trying to source the quote, and determine if it's a full quote. Specifically, the Forrest quote. (The one that is bolded).

The link I provided tells you where the original can be found, unfortunately not exactly.

Gurdur · 01-04-2003, 05:43 PM

Wasn't Forrest the one who fully approved of the massacre of black Unionist prisoners at Fort Pillow ?

IOW, there may have been the odd black in the Confederate army, of whom Forrest may have approved; but it's easy to mistake the nature and extent of his approval.

Morat · 01-04-2003, 05:56 PM

Quote:

The link I provided tells you where the original can be found, unfortunately not exactly.

From this bit?

Quote:

Articles in "Black Southerners in Gray," edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.

The writing is a bit blocky at that point, but I got the distinct impression that the Forrest quote was the end of one thought, and then "Black Southerners in Gray" was another. That is, the Forrest quote wasn't from that collection. The transition there certaintly didn't imply it.

Mostly I'm curious simply because it seems rather out of character for Forrest. I don't really have much argument with the general "Look, guys, the South wasn't the devil, and the North certainly wasn't angels, and while slavery kicked off this whole mess, it wasn't like the North was an army of Abolishinists, and the South a bunch of fighting slave-owners" statement.

RED DAVE · 01-05-2003, 02:13 AM

Forrest was number one on my list of the "Worst People in American History. Any remarks he may have made about Black fighting men are pure sentimentality. He was a butcher.

Yes there were Free Blacks in slaves in the Confederate Army. The Free Blacks were defending their property and the system under which they benefitted. Some of them were slave holders. The slaves had been given guns and uniforms and taken off the farms and plantations. How long would it have been before they turned their weapons on their officers?

RED DAVE

The Worst People in American History

IvanK · 01-06-2003, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur
Wasn't Forrest the one who fully approved of the massacre of black Unionist prisoners at Fort Pillow ?

Troops under Forrest's command did shoot black Union soldiers at Ft. Pillow after they had surrendered. I wasn't able to find the source of the quote, but did find that information in McPherson's Battle Cry of Freedom, an excellent one-volume source BTW.

It was Confederate policy to treat black Union soldiers as rebellious slaves and their officers as inciters of slave rebellion and execute both. I don't have any figures to hand as to how many may have suffered that fate, but it may have been only a few as Lincoln promised retribution against Southern POWs.

There were certainly some free blacks as well as slaves attached to Confederate forces as body servants, teamsters, work crews or in other capacities, and so there may have been isolated incidents where blacks were in combat for the South. But the Confederacy did not employ black soliders in any numbers until the last month or so of the war in March and April 1865, formed no units above company strength and probably employed those few ad hoc.

Whatever Forrest may have said about black solders serving under his command, one can surmise that they were only a very few. In any case his command of troops who killed black Union POWs puts his sincerity in grave doubt.

There may be some question as to whether Forrest "fully approved" such an action. He had three horses shot out from under him during the battle and was arguably not his usual self. But neither his nor his adjutant's official reports of the action mention anything about POWs being shot. On the Union side, several contemporary witnesses testify to wounds inconsistent with usual combat action, burning of tents and structures housing wounded POWs and subsequent loss of life, and the deliberate and illegal shooting of the Union officer in command after his surrender. But whether he fully approved of any of this or not, Forrest certainly had a responsibility as a military commander under the laws of war in existence at the time to see that prisoners were not shot after surrendering and to deal out serious consequences if they were; a responsibility he does not mention in his official report and therefore one he surely failed to carry out.

01-03-2003, 08:30 PM	#4
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	Re: Forrest Quote from the Civil War Originally posted by Morat The quote I'm curious about is bolded. Can anyone source it? I was hoping to see the quote in full context. Hint: When faced with a quote like this, ^c it, go to www.google.com and paste it then put quotes around it. You're quite likely to find what you are after, namely this

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01-03-2003, 02:29 PM	#2
IvanK Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 2,016	I don't have my favorite reference, Jordan's Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia, to hand at the moment (here's a review) but will check on it this weekend. Generally speaking, African-Americans on whatever side had varying reasons for doing what they did during the Civil War, as did whites. To make the blanket statement that African-Americans who chose to aid the Confederacy did so strictly in hopes of some kind of betterment during or afterwards would not be completely accurate. And to charge Lincoln, or in any case Lincoln alone, with "deceit and cunning" for being less than enthusiastic about racial equality in the 1860s is to commit the historical sin of presentism. Almost no one -- certainly very few whites, even those who were ardent supporters of the Union and the war -- thought the races could or should be equal. The Civil War was (eventually at least) about ending slavery. The struggle for equal rights took another hundred or so years, and is still being waged today. Personally, I'd think "deceit and cunning" would better fit those who participated in or sent young men to war to defend a scandalous, immoral trade in human lives rather than those who tried to stop it. If the Sons of Confederate Veterans want to inflict yet another monument on Richmond, perhaps one to the many Africans who died on the slave ships, the many who were worked and neglected to death on plantations or the few who rose up in attempts to gain their freedom by force might offer a more appropriate and "truer account" of history. But I'm not holding my breath for a statue of Lincoln.

01-03-2003, 04:06 PM	#3
Beelzebub Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Connecticut Posts: 554	I've also heard about blacks serving in the Confederate Army before. One thing I noticed was that , at the most, 93,000 served in all capacities. I wonder how many were actual combat troops? I'm also fairly sure (from memory) that over 500,000 served in the Union Army and some all black battalions fought towards the end of the war, Cold Harbour comes to mind .

01-04-2003, 08:49 AM	#5
Morat Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 932	Yeah I saw that. It's possible I'm merely misreading the quote, and that that is the full quote (the ellipses may indicate a pause in speech or original punctuation or something). But that is my question: Is that the full quote? In what context did Forrest say/write this statement? When/where was the statement made? I'm basically trying to source the quote, and determine if it's a full quote. Specifically, the Forrest quote. (The one that is bolded).

01-04-2003, 05:43 PM	#7
Gurdur Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Buggered if I know Posts: 12,410	Wasn't Forrest the one who fully approved of the massacre of black Unionist prisoners at Fort Pillow ? IOW, there may have been the odd black in the Confederate army, of whom Forrest may have approved; but it's easy to mistake the nature and extent of his approval.

01-05-2003, 02:13 AM	#9
RED DAVE Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: NYC Posts: 10,532	Forrest was number one on my list of the "Worst People in American History. Any remarks he may have made about Black fighting men are pure sentimentality. He was a butcher. Yes there were Free Blacks in slaves in the Confederate Army. The Free Blacks were defending their property and the system under which they benefitted. Some of them were slave holders. The slaves had been given guns and uniforms and taken off the farms and plantations. How long would it have been before they turned their weapons on their officers? RED DAVE The Worst People in American History

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