dk

dk: "There’s no psychological basis for the word homophobia..."
Fr Andrew: None's intended anymore. That's pretty much a strawman. It's become a descriptive word nowadays.
If you can think of a better word to convey antipathy for homosexuality and those who practice it, I'd be happy to use it.
dk: While I take offense at the term homophobia/homophobe because it is ill defined and overly broad, after looking around I have to recant. Everyone seems to recognize the word, including the CDC, NIH, Congress and Courts.

dk: "...it’s a derogatory term a gay psychiatrist invented to disparage Christians as fundamentally psychotic."
Fr Andrew: Not that it matters, but George Weinberg is not gay. Kenneth Smith, either.
George Weinberg, the man who's generally given credit for having coined the the term, said, "Homophobia is just that: a phobia. A morbid and irrational dread which prompts irrational behavior flight or the desire to destroy the stimulus for the phobia and anything reminiscent of it."
Both he and Kenneth Smith came up with several criteria for determining homophobia--running from degree of comfort around homosexuals to whether or not society should lock them up. I've read nothing of either that speaks derogatorily toward or disparaging of Christians or Christianity, however.
I think it's simply a case of the shoe fitting.
dk: I was talking about “The Gay Agenda” written by Jack Nichols, the foreword was written by George Weinberg.

dk: "I won’t quote scripture..."
Fr Andrew: More accurately, you can't quote scripture to support your assertion that any of those Biblical heroes you mentioned were "effeminate"--because none exists.
dk: Gen 25:17 “As the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man who lived in the open; whereas Jacob was a simple man, who kept to his tents. 28 Isaac preferred Esau, but Rebekah preferred Jacob.” Gen 27:11 “But my brother Esau is a hairy man,” said Jacob to his mother Rebekah, “and I am smooth skinned!. 12 Suppose my father feels me? He will think I am making sport of him, and I will bring upon myself a curse instead of my blessing.”

Fr.Andrew: I'm sorry to come across as arrogant, dk. I simply want to slow the spread of misinformation when I can.
Education is key.
dk: Education or indoctrination.

dk

I don't follow you... On what basis have you determined anal sex to be safe?

keyser_soze

Where have you deduced that it isn't? Considering humans have been doing it for several millenia...well, anecdotal evidence, since there is no real study on the subject(I'm assuming) will just have to do. But you could of course supply us with something from some right wing fundy anti-gay site.

keyser_soze

Now, if you don't mind, I'll turn on a little sky lopez...

Amen-Moses

Jacob was Japanese and Esau an Orangutan I thought everyone knew that.

What is effeminate about being smooth skinned? over 2 billion men worldwide are smooth skinned and in fact hairy in any meaningful sense is by far the minority position.

Maybe the story of Jacob and Esau is a long mis-remembered tale of the interaction between Neandertal and Human groups and trying to explain why one survived an the other did not?

Amen-Moses

Fr.Andrew

(Fr Andrew): With the use of a proper condom and lubricant, and education on technique, it's as safe and comfortable as vaginal intercourse.

Fr.Andrew

(dk): I was talking about “The Gay Agenda” written by Jack Nichols, the foreword was written by George Weinberg.
(Fr Andrew): Jack Nichols didn't "invent" the term "homophobia" to "disparage Christians
as fundamentally psychotic" as you say he did.
That's indoctrination.
George Weinberg coined the term "homophobia" to describe an attitude.
That's education.

(dk): Gen 25:17 “As the boys grew up, Esau became a skillful hunter, a man who lived in the open; whereas Jacob was a simple man, who kept to his tents. 28 Isaac preferred Esau, but Rebekah preferred Jacob.” Gen 27:11 “But my brother Esau is a hairy man,” said Jacob to his mother Rebekah, “and I am smooth skinned!. 12 Suppose my father feels me? He will think I am making sport of him, and I will bring upon myself a curse instead of my blessing.”
(Fr Andrew): I await some evidence that Jacob was "effeminate", dk. Smooth arms are no indication--unless you're suggesting that, for instance, Mike Tyson, is "effeminate"?

Dr Rick

Am J Orthopsychiatry 2000 Oct;70(4):542-8 The National Lesbian Family Study: 3. Interviews with mothers of five-year-olds. Gartrell N, Banks A, Reed N, Hamilton J, Rodas C, Deck A.
Department of Psychiatry, University of California, San Francisco, USA.

"This third report from a longitudinal study of lesbian families presents data obtained from interviews with mothers of five-year-old children conceived by donor insemination. Results indicated that 87% of the children related well to peers, 18% had experienced homophobia from peers or teachers, and 63% had grandparents who frankly acknowledged their grandchild's lesbian family."

Am J Orthopsychiatry 2003 Apr;73(2):167-76
Intolerance and psychopathology: toward a general diagnosis for racism, sexism, and homophobia. Guindon MH, Green AG, Hanna FJ.

Department of Counseling and Human Services, School of Professional Studies in Business and Education, Johns Hopkins University, Rockville, Maryland 20850-3332, USA...

"The common denominator seems to be intolerance. The authors explore the possibility of an intolerant personality disorder, outline likely symptoms, and suggest some possible treatment considerations."

J Homosex 2000;40(2):31-48
Heterosexual masculinity and homophobia: a reaction to the self? Theodore PS, Basow SA. Lafayette College, Easton, PA 18042, USA.

"Heterosexual masculinity is the cultural pressure exerted on males to be masculine in traits and heterosexual in orientation or else be viewed as feminine and socially unacceptable. The current study investigated the link between heterosexual masculinity and homophobia in 74 college males. Specifically, gender self-discrepancy (how well males think they fit cultural expectations of how they should act as a man), attribute importance (perceived importance of possessing masculine attributes), and self-esteem were examined as predictors of homophobia. Attribute importance, self-discrepancy along masculine traits, and their interaction significantly predicted degree of homophobia in this sample."


Am Psychoanal Assoc 2001 Fall;49(4):1315-34
On hating in the first person plural: thinking psychoanalytically about racism, homophobia, and misogyny. Moss D.
NYU Psychonalytic Institute, New York, NY 10003, USA.
"On the basis of personal, cultural, and clinical references, misogyny, homophobia, and racism are conceptualized as structured forms of hatred grounded in a defensive use of the first person plural voice. This use of hatred defends against dangers associated with desires linked to the first person singular. In these hatreds, "I want" is defensively transformed into "we hate." Disidentification from and hatred of the object appear where identification and yearning had been. Along with this defensive move into plurality, with these forms of hatred comes the use of what is conceptualized as the "hermeneutics of transparency." Here the hated qualities of the objects in question are sensed to be transparently obvious, a matter not of thought but of perception. The underlying premises of these hatreds are then contrasted with the underlying premises of psychoanalysis. Effective psychoanalytic work with these hatreds entails resisting the moral pressure to disidentify from them, while bearing the often profound discomfort linked with identifying with them."

dk

Malthus' Law of Necessity made birth control necessary, at least according to social scientists. The New Left of the 1960s promulgated non-judgmental rights, sexual revolution and drugs. The Sexual Revolution decoupled the Marital Act from procreation, and procreation from marriage. This made open sex possible. Non-Judgmental Rights and open sex provided a basis for the Gay, Lesbian and Bi Rights Movement.

The inablity of Old Europe to raise enouch children to sustain infrastructure, military and industry indicates atrophy and sterility of the culture. There may be a relationship between homosexuality, non-judgmental rights, drugs and an unsustainable birth rate, but not a causal (necessary) relationship.

yguy

Only if one presumes that moral revulsion is necessarily a product of subjective rather than objective morality.

Yes, based on either some objective standard of morality or societal consensus. If the former, explaining it will again lead you to an apparently unsupportable assertion; if the latter, we can just as properly confer non-human status on blacks as we can rationalize homosexuality.

You've got to be kidding. Plenty of people - gangsters, dictators and the like - don't see anything wrong with murder. Does that therefore make it not universally and self-evidently
immoral?