Seraphim

Thanks for the warning, but tell that to Corgan too. I have no intention of having this thread locked by moderators till it served it's purpose.

Maybe if I ignore him, he will go away ... I think I will do that ...

Amos

Hi Pwn, my name is Amos and I have news for you!

Heaven is religion specific and only Catholics are the special ones that can go to heaven. If you don't believe this would you suggest that Buddhist experience Heaven instead of Nirvana? So why would you want to drag dogs into heaven if protestants can't even get there.

Seraphim

Amos, how are you so sure there is a heaven and hell? Is there a logical explaination (never mind scientific one) about heaven and hell? If you ask a Catholic about heaven, he or she will say that God created heaven and hell, other than that, no other explaination is expected to be given nor acquired by those who believe in God.

Here's a common question yet to be answer by religion :

1. Why is there heaven and hell if God created ALL Humans?
2. Why did God bother giving religion if He created men equally?
3. How do you explain Heaven and Hell?
4. What is purpose of Heaven? Place for eternal rest for eternity? We spend less than 100 years on Earth and THAT qualifies a person to be in heaven for eternity?
5. What is purpose of Hell? Place for banishment for not believing in God, who gave free will so humanity could think for himself?

All this doesn't make sense in Christianity or Islam for that matter, so I going to answer by Buddhism point of view.

And what is wrong with Dog may I ask? A dog spend all it's life devoted to protecting its master's house and accompany him. What's wrong with Dogs going to heaven?

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

Amos

Hello Seraphim, sorry that I do not really know you because I have not read any of you posts.

My first point is that this is a philosophical forum and it matters little here what Catholics say about heaven or hell.

1) God created Man and our human-ity is a condition of being. Yes, like a second nature, which is why many of us do not really know who we are. Does that sound familiar? Notice also that we do not have a man-ity because as man we are ALL the same.

2)Men are created equal but not born equal.
Religion is man made and God had nothing to do with it. That is why there are no temples in the New Jerusalem (heaven; Rev.21:22).

3) Heaven is when our second nature (human) is placed subservient to our first nature. The son at the right hand of the father with the woman in charge of our destiny. This means that intuition rules while reason prevails.

Hell is to have one leg in heaven and one on earth.

4) Heaven is to have peace on earth for the second half of life and get old without any desires or fears or sickness or pain and while in charge of your own destiny.

Eternal is is a concept without the acute presense of time. Half of our life should be spend in eternity.

5)There is no purpose for hell other than to make heaven a better place to be. God doesn't send anybody to either heaven or hell but religion does and if religion is sending people in the wrong direction they will end up in hell and away from peace, health and all the other good things heaven has to offer.

Believers do not go to heaven but they can go to heaven. Once again, if believers were wanted in heaven there would be churches there.

Because nobody goes anywhere when they die so why do you want your dog to go someplace?

Seraphim

"Hello Seraphim, sorry that I do not really know you because I have not read any of you posts."

My reply : You should, I was trying to explain about Soul earlier in this thread. You DO believe there is such thing as Soul, right?

"1) God created Man and our human-ity is a condition of being. Yes, like a second nature, which is why many of us do not really know who we are. Does that sound familiar? Notice also that we do not have a man-ity because as man we are ALL the same."

My reply : I'm a bit confused here. I don't understand the part of we do not know who we are. In what way do we not know who were are?

"2)Men are created equal but not born equal.
Religion is man made and God had nothing to do with it. That is why there are no temples in the New Jerusalem (heaven; Rev.21:22)."

My reply : OK, acceptable.

"3) Heaven is when our second nature (human) is placed subservient to our first nature. The son at the right hand of the father with the woman in charge of our destiny. This means that intuition rules while reason prevails."

My reply : So we're born to go to heaven - no question asked or no matter what we do?

"Hell is to have one leg in heaven and one on earth."

My reply : Explain please.

"4) Heaven is to have peace on earth for the second half of life and get old without any desires or fears or sickness or pain and while in charge of your own destiny. "

My reply : Which 2nd half? When does that start?

"Eternal is is a concept without the acute presense of time. Half of our life should be spend in eternity."

My reply : Acceptable since it sounds like meditation also.

"5)There is no purpose for hell other than to make heaven a better place to be. God doesn't send anybody to either heaven or hell but religion does and if religion is sending people in the wrong direction they will end up in hell and away from peace, health and all the other good things heaven has to offer. "

My reply : God doesn't send people to hell for not believing in Him? OK, acceptable. Did God made the Hell, like He made Heaven? Did God endorsed Religion such as Moses's Laws and send prophets to straightened the people whenever they astray?

"Believers do not go to heaven but they can go to heaven. Once again, if believers were wanted in heaven there would be churches there."

My reply : And how do you know there is none there?

Amos, I really don't see in which direction you are coming from. Is it from religionist point of view or Atheist point of view? It seems to be a huge mix in both and end up confusing me more than clearing things.

kctan

1 Humans made 'art' for no apparant reason as do other animals. The thing is that we don't know what animals will consider as art.

2 Humans cultivate the land for food which is nothing more then using our specilisation of the brain to help us to bring in food. Animals also 'cultivate' the lands as some monkey species will poop in areas where fruit trees can't be found.

3 Recording history - want to explain how migratory animals remembers the route back to their spawning ground thousands of kilometers away ? Some will take generations just to get back but how do they do it (eg. Monarch butterflies, sea turtles, salmons etc...) ?

4 Religion - How do you know that animals don't have their own religion ? Wolves baying at the moon comes to mind but does anyone really knows what they are doing ?

Nothing special in our evolution so far as I can see.

BTW To the bird nest thingy, your saying that its due to a better built nest is abit 'forced' as why did another female came along & chose this nest now ?

Its not because the nest is built stronger or better or whatever, it just feels 'right' to that female in particular.

This is also our own attitude as to what we consider as artistic, do you feel heavy-metal type of music as asthetic or a single dot in a background of blue as artistic ?

There's no right answer here as like 'love' its just a matter of your hormones & emotions & yes true love exists not only in the movies alone but in the hearts of the beholders.

The 'Truth' does not matter. Its the 'Way' which is important. This is what I considered to be the essence of what is taught by the Buddha. I interpreted 'Dharma' as 'Way' not 'Truth'.

Seraphim

"1 Humans made 'art' for no apparant reason as do other animals. The thing is that we don't know what animals will consider as art."

My reply : Fine, humans do not know what animals consider as art - fair and acceptable statement. BUT, humans know what humans consider as art - usually drawing, making statues, singing, making music (listening type) and poem. Question still remains - WHY do humans need ART?

"2 Humans cultivate the land for food which is nothing more then using our specilisation of the brain to help us to bring in food. Animals also 'cultivate' the lands as some monkey species will poop in areas where fruit trees can't be found."

My reply : Animals migrating from one place to another cannot be same as humans migrating. You know why? I will list down why :

1. Animals uses migration route which is same throughtout generations and following the season. They will be back to the same spot every year. They do not spread across the globe in RANDOM pattern.

2. Humans attend to migrate in a RANDOM pattern and you can see this pattern if you studied the Out-Of Africa Theory and Mitochondria Eve Theory about the migration of humans out of Africa 200,000 years ago. They DID NOT return back to Africa when the climate changed back to being better.

3. Animals do not cultivate the land as in they do not burn the original crops on a land and plant a new crop to be harvested. They move from one forest to another looking for food.

4. Human settle down in a single area, clears it and cultivate the land. In doing so, they forced themselves to adapt to environment around them thus it is something animals is NOT capable of performing otherwise, you could not see animal migration till now.

"3 Recording history - want to explain how migratory animals remembers the route back to their spawning ground thousands of kilometers away ? Some will take generations just to get back but how do they do it (eg. Monarch butterflies, sea turtles, salmons etc...) ?"

My reply : Simple - memory and sensory ability comes to mind.
Big animals with complex brain like an elephant, whale and other creatures follow the same route over and over again and they memorize it, which is why animals sometimes enter human property in Africa enroute to other places. They do not follow random patterns.

I watched a documentary in Discovery about Monarch butterflies' flight from Central America, up to Canada. What I see is that they always follow the same path most of the time, so it is either the area which is somehow guiding them or that they are following the sun, moon and the stars guidance.

There is 2 more possibility I wish to add (my personal opinions) :

- possibility that genetic may play a role in it - their pattern is somehow in the genes - like intuition or something.
- This smaller creatures may have sensory capability to detech some sort of energy emitted from the Earth itself. Maybe they somehow could detect the cracklines on the Crust and use it like humans use road signs.

"4 Religion - How do you know that animals don't have their own religion ? Wolves baying at the moon comes to mind but does anyone really knows what they are doing ?"

My reply : How I know animals don't have religion? I don't see them praying anywhere, nor do anything that bring to mind of spiritual activity. As for wolves holwing, I believe it is the form of communcation. A wolf who is separated from the pack will howl and that will be replied back by another. Why they howl at the moon and not all the time? Maybe (most logical choice) is that they do not want their predators to track them down if they shoot their mouth all the time, and they probably "choose" the time of the full moon to howl since it is very clear and they could see friend or foe coming for miles in night time.

"BTW To the bird nest thingy, your saying that its due to a better built nest is abit 'forced' as why did another female came along & chose this nest now ? "

My reply : Don't understand, explain.

"Its not because the nest is built stronger or better or whatever, it just feels 'right' to that female in particular. "

My reply : Feels right? That is not a logical explaination. An animal could choose the most best nest it could find if it was to make sure that the youngling survives. The survival of the chicks depends on - safety of the nest (how strong and how high it is) and hard working parents.

"This is also our own attitude as to what we consider as artistic, do you feel heavy-metal type of music as asthetic or a single dot in a background of blue as artistic ? "

My reply : If noises that abuse your sensors and a dot in a blue background is YOUR taste of artistic quality, I have no interest in arguing with that since it is personal choice, however that doesn't mean ALL humans are same. 100 men will have 100 choices, 100 bird of same species will have 1 attitute when choosing a nest. Take that into consideration.

"There's no right answer here as like 'love' its just a matter of your hormones & emotions & yes true love exists not only in the movies alone but in the hearts of the beholders."

My reply : True Love? Please spare me the crap. There is no true love, only Lust.

"The 'Truth' does not matter. Its the 'Way' which is important. This is what I considered to be the essence of what is taught by the Buddha. I interpreted 'Dharma' as 'Way' not 'Truth'. "

My reply : You don't bother with the Truth but seek to learn the Way? To me, that is like not knowing your destination but driving there never the less. But if that is your choice, fine by me since I'm not here to educate you or anyone (no offence attended).

Amos

Maybe you are a little too aggressive not to be confused. I am not a religionist and not an atheist. I just write as it is.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

kctan

Originally posted by Seraphim:
Same as "why do animals need art". Get it yet ?

Population constraints causing a need to spread out or else face the possibility of extinction. Lemmings will commit suicide, we have good brain, we don't follow their way.

See above.

This applies to a slash & burn type of agriculture only. If you really know your agriculture, slash & burn type is not the only way we concieved with our brain to get food. Fallowing & crop rotation are two examples.

Moving from forest to forest means the most rudimentary type of food gathering which is what their brains are capable of.

We never forced our selves. Its more efficient this way. Ants also settle down at an area & cultivated the land to suit its purpose. Ever seen ant farms before ?

Much better then our ways of recording history isn't it ?

Wolves are considered to be at the top of the food chain in most areas where you can find wolves. They can smell better then they can see.

Some birds don't build nests at all but use nests build by other birds. Some birds build such sloppy nests that its a wonder they don't go extinct.

Wrong here. A 100 bird will also have a 100 attitude when choosing a nest.

[quote]My reply : True Love? Please spare me the crap. There is no true love, only Lust./quote]

Love is not just about sex... We are at different level regarding this, best is we don't go too much into this.

What is truth ? Can you really be sure its the truth when you find it ? By following the way it will lead you there but when decided already about a truth, once you reach it, it may be too hard to return...

No offence taken. Have already travelled that road.

Seraphim

"Same as "why do animals need art". Get it yet ?"

My reply : They DON'T need Arts - only a handful of creatures display some sort of activity which could be considered as Art (such as Whale and their "songs") and even that is because humans don't understand WHY they do it YET. Human on the otherhand, seems to have need for Art which dates back as long as 40,000 years and we still don't see why we need them. So your statement is disputable.

"Population constraints causing a need to spread out or else face the possibility of extinction. Lemmings will commit suicide, we have good brain, we don't follow their way."

My reply : Population constraints is the LEAST cause of a migration than anything else. Matter a fact, climate change effects animals and forcing them to move them MORE than population constraints.
And where did you get an idea that Lemmings commit suicide because of population strain? Last I checked, their act of jumping into icy death is still unexplainable, just like why an healthy whale beach itself for no apparent reason.

"See above."

My reply : This is where your population strain theory didn't fit. During migrations from one place to another, the group left behind STAY while those who went didn't return. If it is because of population strain, the group left behind will follow the migrating party and settle somewhere where there is better change of survival. Here I give you the link to Out-Of Africa Theory :

<a href="http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020225/eve.html" target="_blank">http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20020225/eve.html</a>
<a href="http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news255.htm" target="_blank">http://www.trussel.com/prehist/news255.htm</a>

"This applies to a slash & burn type of agriculture only. If you really know your agriculture, slash & burn type is not the only way we concieved with our brain to get food. Fallowing & crop rotation are two examples. "

My reply : Sounds like you don't know your agriculture history well. Here's some link :

<a href="http://www.adbio.com/science/agri-history.htm" target="_blank">http://www.adbio.com/science/agri-history.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.ecifm.rdg.ac.uk/history.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ecifm.rdg.ac.uk/history.htm</a>

Slash and burn method is popular because humans attend to come into an area with seeds they collected, clear the land fast with fire and plant their seeds, harvest them for food and seeds and move to the next area. Permanent farming settlement only existed when humans begin to do irragations systems such as in Nile and Hwang Ho rivers. With coming of permanent settlements, thus comes your fallowing and crop rotations.

"Moving from forest to forest means the most rudimentary type of food gathering which is what their brains are capable of. "

My reply : Meaning what?

"We never forced our selves. Its more efficient this way. Ants also settle down at an area & cultivated the land to suit its purpose. Ever seen ant farms before ?"

My reply : 1st of all, Ants are lousy analog for a human settlement. The reason is 1. resources for ant settlement is far more than what humans have - ants can colonize an area for decades without moving since they could feed on trees which could support most of the colonies. Humans have to toil the soil, hunt, fish and farm to get their food supply and it is depend most of the time on the environment.
2. Ants don't move much because of their heiracki - Their Queen is not something they want to expose to danger by moving around. Humans didn't have any Queens or Kings till a permanent settlement had reached - about 5,000 B.C in Nile River banks.

So in a way, We DO forced ourselves to survive in a harsh land.

"Much better then our ways of recording history isn't it ?"

My reply : IF that is your idea of recording history, I suggest you reopen a dictionary and see what history meant. Human record history for reference to the past (Why? I don't know), they DO NOT form such task every year. Insect and birds migrate every year following the same course they followed the year before.

"Wolves are considered to be at the top of the food chain in most areas where you can find wolves. They can smell better then they can see."

My reply : Yes, not because they shoot their mouth every five minutes, because they are careful not to be spotted by whatever may hunt them (a bear does come to my mind as example) or to chase whatever prey that may hunt later.

And DON'T change the subject. You said something about animals and religion.

"Some birds don't build nests at all but use nests build by other birds. Some birds build such sloppy nests that its a wonder they don't go extinct."

My reply : Some birds like Penguins and Sea Gulls - yes. They most likely want to lay eggs fast, hatch them and get their younglings out of the area ASAP. They are built that way, part of nature, nothing special there.

"Wrong here. A 100 bird will also have a 100 attitude when choosing a nest."

My reply : Correction - 100 birds from the SAME species will find the same attitude when choosing a nest - the nest must be strong, well-built and secured, all this show the bird (male) which built it is hard-working bird which could provide for the chicks when they hatch. Simple survival trick.

"Love is not just about sex... We are at different level regarding this, best is we don't go too much into this."

My reply : Agreed - makes me feel sick if I talk more about it.

"What is truth ? Can you really be sure its the truth when you find it ? By following the way it will lead you there but when decided already about a truth, once you reach it, it may be too hard to return..."

My reply : What is the Truth? To me, it is simply this - I suffer because of myself - carved for passion, lust, emotions, needs and desires. I have no one to blame nor do I have anyone as enemy. I fight myself so I can become better ME. That is the truth for me, at least what I learn the last 30 years.

Different people will see differently - which is not a bad thing nor untruthful conclusion. It is Truth in their point of view and their actions.