FarSeeker

lpetrich
I make no claim that Christians are, or become, perfect when they put their trust in Christ. On the other hand, there ARE Atheists who claim the world will be all warm-fuzzies once everyone becomes Atheist. If those who committed those evils were Christians, then they committed them in spite
of Christ not because of. The Atheists in Marxist countries, however, believe they can determine right from wrong on their own, and reasoned that mass murder was acceptable. That is the heart of Atheism.

If you are so self-righteous about how positively correct you are, then please prove to your fellow "rational Atheist," Prof. Singer, at the Princeton University's Chair of BioETHICS that infantcide is unethical. If you fail to do so with a fellow "rational Atheist," don't expect
me to accept your reasoning here.

But, please note that no attempt was made here to condemn Marxists, in any form. Only a pathetic attempt to restate the childish response, "well you did it first!" What am I to expect from those whos only condemnation of Marxist/ism is "bad, bad, bad,...," while every recrimination and invective is used against myself and my beliefs. And I am insulted again when I point this out.

As for Hitler, How do you know that Hitler believed in God, from you fellow Atheists? Have you taken that on faith? Do a little reading for yourself for once!

Hitler's policy resulted from Jesus throwing the money chagers out of the Temple? THE JEWISH Temple? You ignorance is only exceeded by your audacity.

utbabya
Which says as its intro: You just gotta love the objectiveness of utbabya sources. One wonders HOW he found that site.

That last line is a line I hear from Racists on the news defending their view, e.i. they are racists, but not bigots.

[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: FarSeeker ]

FarSeeker

FarSeeker, [quote]
The fact that Christians have been a majority in the United States of America, the majority of Presidents, and just HAPPENS to have outlawed slavery (which your "glorious" example did not), amoung other things, like destroying perhaps the 3 most evil nations of history: Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and the USSR.
[/QUOTE

phlebas posted September 01, 2001 01:31 PM If you cared to check, yes, Christians did that. Unfortunately, you rely on the propaganda from those at this site, this leaves you seriously lacking in details. “A little study of history might help here.” Heh

turtonm Administrator
The difference between the United States and Soviet Russia should be enough to prove that postulate wrong. Christians are free to act in the US, not so in the USSR As for a linear view of history, that is one defining point of Western Civilization. And many Atheists, if not ALL, look forward to a time of warm fuzzies when all “religionists” (a term on par with the terms k*k* and n*gg*r, such that I hesitate to use it) disappear and “non-believers” will enter a paradise (more likely Atheists will turn upon the Agnostics as the new “enemies of rationalism&#8221 .

The modern slave trade did not find its origin in the Bible, but in greed – the love of money. The treatment those Africans received was contrary to everything the Bible teaches about slavery. The commands the Bible gives on slavery is more akin to the “indentured-servant” of the revolutionary period that the slavery you speak of. But you ignore those Christians that fought against that evil trade. The Abolitionists were mostly Christians.

But in a way, you are holding a racist position yourself. You are saying that all those African-Americans who are Christians today are lying, stupid or ignorant about Christianity. That’s insulting.

The Pope did save many Jews from the Nazis, but the Catholic Church is not so monolithic as you imply. I have heard that there are some who are really atheists. The magazine “World War II” has an article you should read in its July 2001 issue. It relates one German Nazi security report that says, “The church knowingly ignores the differences between races,…”
Please note that the Nazis use the term “race,” not religion, showing that theirs was more of an evolutionary view than religious.

Cardinal-Archbishop Clemens August von Galen of Munster denounced many Nazis acts and ended up in Sachsenhausen concentration camp. Father Maximilian Koble, a Polish priest and professor was arrested for helping Jews escape and sent to Auschwitz, where he was executed. In May of 1943 the Nazis moved against Catholics in the Netherlands who openly condemned Nazi persecution of Jews; “more than 100 protesters where killed.”

The Pope had hidden Allied soldiers and Jews in Rome. If the Pope had acted more overtly that he did, it is certain that the Nazis would have overrun the Vatican and destroyed all his efforts. But then I think Atheists would have liked that. Having well organized Catholic Church to oppose the Marxism, the history of Europe would definitely worst off. But you won’t learn of any of this from Atheists.

Marxist/Atheists kill because they find it rationally expedient. It’s "reasonable". But your own words condemn you. The Atheists on this site continue to condemn All Christianity, but rarely the slightest serious word is uttered against Marxists.

Insults against Christians: numberless
Insults against Marxists: one

Shows where your favoritism lies.

"A little study of history might help here."
I certainly agree, why haven't you?

doodad

There is a difference between altruism and communism, and I cannot see that the passages you refer to are speaking of communism. You may want to look back into the early parts of the OT for a sign. The nomadic people banded together for their common welfare and defense and finally settled down in communes. It appears that the communism of that time was not as mean spirited as that of modern times.
I have always felt that Christianity was a little bit socialistic, but maybe I mistake that for altruism.

I have a little trouble following your suggestion of irony. If being an atheist means not being subject to the restraints advocated by religious doctrine then an atheist is worse off in America than in an authoritarian state. However, he still has the political freedom in America to say no to religous dogma. If it weren't for that then we couldn't get on this forum and lip off like we do. However, in a secular sense, I think people are much better off living in our form of democracy than under communism. Although some may view Christianity as being oppressive it actually helps to resist oppression because people can pay allegiance to a master that is not vulnerable to the secular authority. It gives them something to rally to in order to endure their political bondage. The American Negro used religion to see him through in times of slavery.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: doodad ]

doodad

Yeah. I thought the atheists did it.

doodad

Atheism is a worldview, as is religion. Personally I haven't been able to credit atheism for much either. It is frivolous.

doodad

Agreed Bill. It's a corny and childish argument. Even those who argue that points are not corners got the message the Bible was trying to say. They lost the argument at the start when they opened their mouths.
The metaphor conveyed meaning to the point that it was understood.

nixon

It's kind of funny watching Christians blame atheists for all the troubles, and the atheists blaming all the Christians on this website.

In America, atheists are looked down upon as something to be pitied (or converted). It is then little wonder that atheists don't think much of Christians.

I personally watching "real" Christian reaction to current troubles with Afganistan have concluded I can't tell the difference between "real" Christians and "real" Muslims. They both say their faith is the truth and that they would die or kill for it. Then in the next breath they both claim that theirs is a religion of peace. History proves that both religions cannot both be true, and neither is a religion of peace.

On another note, has anyone noticed that now the Taliban is threatening more rains of aircraft in America if we don't get out of Afganistan? Talk about devout lying muslim dorks. Even if we didn't have any evidence, they just 'fessed up to the crime.

lpetrich

LP:
And Hitler believed that God had given us our form, and that fighting the Jews was doing the work of "the Lord", Jesus Christ, as exemplified by him throwing the moneychangers out of the Temple.

FarSeeker:
I make no claim that Christians are, or become, perfect when they put their trust in Christ.

LP:
Pure evasion. As if believing in Jesus Christ gives one an unlimited license to sin.

FarSeeker:
On the other hand, there ARE Atheists who claim the world will be all warm-fuzzies once everyone becomes Atheist.

LP:
That may well be so, but there is a lot of strife and trouble that is not caused by religion -- and there is the possibility of inventing quasi-religious belief systems like Communism.

FarSeeker:
If those who committed those evils were Christians, then they committed them in spite of Christ not because of.

LP:
The Bible is full of attacks on religions and sects other than what is presumed to be the true one. And even persecutions.

There is nothing like the attitude of many Greek and Roman historians, who would regard the deities of oher people as versions of their own deities -- there was nobody who thought that anyone who worships Zeus under some other name ought to be killed as soon as possible so that they can get some extra torment in Tartarus.

FarSeeker:
The Atheists in Marxist countries, however, believe they can determine right from wrong on their own, and reasoned that mass murder was acceptable.

LP:
So "I'm only following gawd's orders" is an acceptable moral stance? I'm sure that the kamikaze hijackers of Sept. 11 would have agreed with that. I particularly like their "Allah Is Our Co-Pilot" checklist.

FarSeeker:
As for Hitler, How do you know that Hitler believed in God, from you fellow Atheists? Have you taken that on faith? Do a little reading for yourself for once!

LP:
Read his own statements -- such as those from Mein Kampf.

FarSeeker:
Hitler's policy resulted from Jesus throwing the money chagers out of the Temple? THE JEWISH Temple? You ignorance is only exceeded by your audacity.

LP:
That did not bother AH either. Of course, he could have been posing as a good Xtian, which has often been a very successful tactic -- claiming that what one is doing is what Jesus Christ would have wanted.

turtonm:
As authority systems, it is not surprising that Christianity and Communism have had their share of killing. Communists killed because they were Communists; they also killed atheists who were not Communists, and Communists who had different beliefs than those of the ruling orthodoxy (sounds a lot like Christianity. What happened to the Cathars again....?).

FarSeeker:
The difference between the United States and Soviet Russia should be enough to prove that postulate wrong. Christians are free to act in the US, not so in the USSR As for a linear view of history, that is one defining point of Western Civilization. And many Atheists, if not ALL, look forward to a time of warm fuzzies when all “religionists” (a term on par with the terms k*k* and n*gg*r, such that I hesitate to use it) disappear and “non-believers” will enter a paradise (more likely Atheists will turn upon the Agnostics as the new “enemies of rationalism” .

FarSeeker:
The modern slave trade did not find its origin in the Bible, but in greed – the love of money.

LP:
But greed is good, right?

FarSeeker:
The treatment those Africans received was contrary to everything the Bible teaches about slavery.

LP:
Like what???

FarSeeker:
But you ignore those Christians that fought against that evil trade. The Abolitionists were mostly Christians.

LP:
As were most of the supporters of slavery -- they were fond of quoting the Bible on how God has cursed Ham and his descendants, who include black people, on account of Ham having been a Peeping Tom when Noah got drunk and accidentally exposed himself. Which, I may add, is a great story to tell to one's children

FarSeeker:
... It relates one German Nazi security report that says, “The church knowingly ignores the differences between races,…”
Please note that the Nazis use the term “race,” not religion, showing that theirs was more of an evolutionary view than religious.

LP:
Race has zero necessary connection with evolution (descent with modification). Before Darwin published his magnum opus, there was a long-running controversy over whether different human races were a single creation or separate creations.

FarSeeker:
Marxist/Atheists kill because they find it rationally expedient. It’s "reasonable". But your own words condemn you. The Atheists on this site continue to condemn All Christianity, but rarely the slightest serious word is uttered against Marxists.

LP:
Because there aren't many Marxist assholes on the loose. You may also notice the lack of comment about the Hare Krishna cult -- which is because there aren't many obnoxious Hare Krishna advocates on the loose.

Photocrat

Whereas the atheist govt. of China is a much better example? Might want to take a peek at their human rights record, as published by our own (USA) State Dept.

I'm not sure this proves anything except that this arguement will not get atheists anywhere. Same goes when you try to blame me for everything someone calling themselves 'christian' has done over all of history--I can then rebut by mentioning what the communists in China are doing & if that's so important, what are you doing about it now ...

I have yet to hear a good response from anyone posed that question. I merely get the "no true atheist" fallacy (funny how it's never missed when used the other way...). *sigh*

FarSeeker

Originally posted by Daggah:
I can if the leader claims his actions are reasonable under Atheism.

I could equally ask why blame Christianity for that actions of Hitler, etc. when Christianity is "only the acceptance of Jesus as the Savior of mankind"?

Atheism is the unsupported claim that there is no God, but it implies FAR more. By forced implication in includes that belief that mankind's reasoning rules ALL, and materialism [there is no supernatural]. It forces that acceptance of, to paraphrase a popular pagan creed: "Do whatever you reason to be right." Pagans, to their credit, at least append the line, "as long as it hurts no one else." Thus we have Stalin (whom a fellow Atheist of yours stated was not a Communist/Marxist) and the Chinese government reasoning that mass murder to was permissible to reach their goals. And abortionists saying children 3-6 inches from birth are just blobs of flesh, and Fellow Atheist Peter Singer saying new-born children are not persons, and may be killed upon request. The creed of Atheism is that human reason reigns supreme.

You may want to claim that compassion enters into the picture somewhere, but that emotion is nothing but a weak form of reasoning that need not enter the picture.

Atheism is a dogma and a faith, since it's based on an argument from ignorance: "I see no evidence for deity, thus there is no deity." (Remember the saying "it is wrong to believe in anything without sufficient evidence") Its creed is "thou shalt use reason only." Compassion need not apply.

If you want to claim you are an agnostic-atheist like someone else on this site, then you claim to be the equivalent of a square circle. If you claim to be an agnostic, that is something else; you have to admit Atheism is illogical because you reject their reasonning.

Errata: There is an Atheist authored book out there titled "No Gods, No Masters" (or something like that).