fwh

Would the concept of reincarnation be of value in interpreting this verse and others.

Jayman

No, but resurrection of the dead might.

Skeptical

I don't really expect a reply to this, given your "list and run" methodology, but would you care to answer the question I asked you earlier in this thread regarding Jesus' deception of the people he was speaking to in Mat?

Jayman

I'm unable to find my source, but as I recall, "this" in Greek is ambiguous and can refer to either Jesus' generation or the generation of the signs. It's only in the English translation that the conflict arises. I don't have time to make any long posts on this topic since I find it to be quite complex.

ishalon

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jayman

I was merely talking about Matt. 24:34 not the other verses. Sorry for not clarifying.

Skeptical

So let me get this straight. Jesus is sitting talking to a group of people. He says "this generation" and you believe that the people sitting there would understand him to mean some far distant, future generation of "signs"? Is that really your contention? You honestly believe this nonsense?

Even if somehow one can torture ones logic to the point of believing this to be the case, it is indisputable that generation after generation of Christians for the past 2,000 years have believed that their generation was "this" generation. Jesus would certainly have known this and, once again, no matter how you slice it he was deceptive. He _could_ have been explicit very easily. He could easily have said, "a generation 2,000 years from now". But he didn't say that. He said "this generation". And please don't try to argue that the gospel writers just wrote it down wrong, God could certainly have made sure they got it right.

Once again, the only explanations available are he was wrong, he lied or he never said anything like this.

Jayman

I won't make a judgement about Jesus based on this verse alone. I'll leave it at that.

This opens up another can of worms. The Gospels say that Jesus does not know the time of his return; only the Father knows. How much did Jesus really know of future of events while on earth? If he didn't know future events how could he be explicit?

Le pede

Hi everyone. I wrote a letter to the editor in The Skeptical Review about this topic 2 years ago.

Mr. Kroll is quite right and brings up an excellent point when he says that Jesus did not say that generation. N. Clayton Croy, in A Primer of Biblical Greek (Eerdmans, 1999) says: “Biblical Greek, like English has a ‘near’ demonstrative houtos for something relatively close in time, space or thought, and a ‘far’ demonstrative, ekeinos for something relatively distant.” In Matthew 24:34, the ‘near’ demonstrative houtos is used. If in fact, Jesus had meant for a generation that was far in time, space, or thought, he would have used ekeinos.

I also agree with Mr. Kroll that there is no textual or contextual reason to translate the word genea in Matthew 24:34 any differently from the way that it is normally translated­, which is the English word “generation.” As a supplement to Mr. Smith's article, I would invite TSR's readers to reread Mr. Hutchinson's response to my article, carefully examining his biblical citations concerning “this generation.” Observant readers should notice that each time Mr. Hutchinson cites an instance in which the words “this generation” are used, except Matthew 24:34, he concedes that it is somehow a reference to Jesus's contemporaries. It would behoove Mr. Hutchinson to explain why in all of the other instances that the words “this generation” are used in a direct address, Jesus was referring to his contemporaries but all of a sudden, in Matthew 24:34, Jesus meant something else.

Another issue to consider, and an issue that was raised in my first article for TSR, is that the implications of the argument that genea could mean “race” are frightening. Take Matthew 16:4 in which Jesus called his audience a “wicked and adulterous race!” Or consider Jesus's temper tantrum in Matthew 23:36 in which he describes all of the horrible things that will come upon this “generation.” If this word can mean “race,” then it could mean that the Jewish race is under some kind of curse (and according to the Bible, God can and does curse an entire race of people). If genea can mean “race,” the New Testament may be far more anti-Semitic than once thought. Good thing Hitler didn't talk to any fundamentalists.

Also see my commentary on references to the Apocalypse here: <a href="http://liberation.athlesisonline.com/endofworld.html" target="_blank">Apocalypse NOT!</a>.

You can also see my commentary on "reconciling" biblical contradictions here: <a href="http://liberation.athlesisonline.com/reconciliations.html" target="_blank">Problems With Reconciling Contradictions</a>

Thanks,
Brian

Skeptical

I wasn't asking you to "make a judgement about Jesus". You can believe whatever you want about Jesus, but still believe that there are problems with some of the things he supposedly said in the NT. My only point was that any reasonable person should be open to the idea that the documents that make up the NT may have a few problems. An inerrantists position is, in my view, clearly untenable.

<strong> Do you not believe in the trinity? Jesus=God=Holy spirit, correct? If God knows, Jesus should have known. Besides, Jesus doesn't seem very ambivalent in this and other eschatological sayings in the NT. He certainly seems to be speaking with authority on these topics. No where does he give a disclaimer that "well, I don't really know when this is going to happen, it could be quite a long time".

Bottom line, there are many problems with an inerrantists view of the NT (not to mention the OT). The good thing for theists is that an errantists view is compatible with Christianity. There are lots of Christians who are not inerrantists, and they don't have to resort to tortured logic to resolve problems like Mat 24:34.