Defiant Heretic

Buffman: When I said that we need to convince people that Bush is a threat, I meant we need to convince other atheists. For convincing Christians, your approach would work better.


I think that if we’re going to picket some event, it should be something that threatens the separation of church and state. Why picket a church? People have every right to attend a church if they want to. That’s the Free Exercise Clause and it’s worth protecting, just as the Establishment Clause is. We need to picket events like school-boards that are considering vouchers or allowing ID into the classroom, or government buildings that display the ten commandments. We don’t want to make it so people aren’t allowed to practice their religion. We just don’t want it forced on us.

Buffman

D. H.

I most certainly agree with your position. I continue to be deeply concerned that the Bush administration will accomplish the ultimate goal of the radical Christian right...a Judicial arm of government that is not independent of religious faith control and manipulation. A rubber stamp, religious, judiciary would be a disaster for democracy, the Constitution and our freedom to express our individual consciences. That's why I have elected to call the Bush administration the Christian Taliban.

Shake

Like JAI, I too would most certainly mind! Did you not read my posts? I said I support your ideas. I was just asking for clarification of how to go about them. I also responded to Richard's post, and am not really in disagreement with his ideas either. I merely questioned the effectiveness of picketing and its consequences!

I was happy about the 9th Circuit Courts' ruling on the PoA! I've even argued to have the PoA put to bed as a relic! Look Sushi, I'm an atheist too! But Richard's most recent post sums things up pretty well.

I'll do what I can to help.

beejay

Rather than requesting a competing display, you should attack the original unconstitutional display.

I know that hasn't always worked in Lancaster OH, but for most of the rest of us, the courts have been friendly. (Very few 10C monuments have withstood a court challenge.)

GaryP

Perhaps the 10C's was a bad example.

I'm thinking that if an Atheist or others request equal time, the folly of plastering religious items in public places may be recognized by the majority.

Here in Lancaster, we don't have the 10 C's problem but we do have the annual Nativity Scene. Efforts to get that off public property fizzled because of court decisions that allow the city to keep it just by adding a few secular items.


There's also a permanent Veterans' Memorial which has the cross & star Of David. The inscription begins, "For God & Country...".

I have inquired about this and discovered that it was paid for with private funds and private funds were used to set up a trust fund which allegedly pays for it's upkeep.

The city seems to think that this keeps the memorial from being subject to the Establishment Claus.

I haven't delved into that issue yet because I'm still recovering from the "Creche crisis".

There is nothing at the memorial stating that it is a private place. And when the city added secular items for the creche, they also prohibited "unattended, private displays." So if it is a private display, it is violating their own policy.

Does anybody have any insight into this issue?

Shake

Hey, by the way I just found the following while perusing Religioustolerance.org : There's hope!

Anti-Creedance Front

I've been saying this on this board for months... I run a group that actively fights fundamentalist doctrine and actions. The poster's "speech" did sound a bit contrived. Shouldn't he make a speech like that at some huge gathering, as he uses such monumental words? Paul Revere didn't post his call to arms on a bulletin board at the bar (the 1700's equivalent of a message board). Anyway, my group intends to both culture jam and counterprotest fundamentalists on the streets. Many nontheists say protesting isn't effective, but do you really think all these lobbying, letter-writing groups are doing much to keep the fundamentalist wolves off our backs? Just look at the abortion clinics. They are out on the street constantly.

Therefore, we must be there to meet them, and let them know we don't want them shouting their hateful message. Imagine Fred Phelps (Godhatesfags.com)'s face if we protested at his church? These fundies are going unchecked, and that's why they seem to constitute the majority of Christianity. More liberal Christians are silent, and the pagans and freethinkers are writing letters and griping, but their cries are not heard. That's why Anti-Fundamentalist Front is important. True, we're getting up in their face, but only after they've SPIT in ours.

Adam Smith
ralien@charter.net
Anti-Fundamentalist Front
http://www.blocka.net/AFF

P.S. We changed our name from Anti-Creedance Front to Anti-Fundamentalist Front.

Shake

Thanks for your post, ACF! I checked out your site briefly yesterday and am most definitely going back!

Sushi, you check this out, too!

LLaurieG

Dear Richard,

I was surprised by the flack you immediately took here for your simple, pacifist, honored-by-the-Constitution idea of picketing for non-belief on the sidewalk out in front of a church on Sunday. I agree with you! It is activist in the noblest way I can think of, and a LOT braver and more admirable than atheists merely sitting in front of the computer typing furiously on the II board. Such small, heartfelt, humble actions are honest and good.

Plenty of private doubters still attend church with their believing families. Plenty of impressionable children, who would rather be anyplace else than in Sunday school. Sometimes it only takes one out-of-the-ordinary event to plant that tiny, idea-seed for critical thinking. Maybe seeing the unusual some Sunday... "Mommy, doesn't that man believe in god? Why not?" could stimulate a big discussion at home.

When I was a kid, I asked the classic basic question. "If god is everywhere and sees everything, why do I have to go to church for him to see me? He should be able to see me at home and know I believe in him there." To see A GROWNUP outside the church with a sign saying Couldn't God Make More Money If He Needed To? Why Don't You Sleep In?! would have been a remarkable event, talked about for months.

I think your idea is great activism, and admirable, and a lot more than most atheists do.

Anti-Creedance Front

Be sure to sign up for the message board, I want to stimulate some good discussions on there. It also helps reassure me how much support I have. :P