Rational BAC

But then again read some of the off the wall and completely inappropriate one word definitions for Christianity posted so far.

Fair is fair. Pot cannot call kettle black.

I can come up with very many more off the wall one word definitions of atheism ---just to even things up a bit.

Mageth

Originally posted by Rational BAC
But then again read some of the off the wall and completely inappropriate one word definitions for Christianity posted so far.

I never said I agreed with all of them, did I? (Only the ones I posted, obviously )

Fair is fair. Pot cannot call kettle black.

And if Christians can respond to those posted by atheists in defense of Christianity, then I and others can respond to those posted by theists in defense of atheism. So the pot calls the kettle black, and the kettle responds in kind.

I can come up with very many more off the wall one word definitions of atheism ---just to even things up a bit.

But remember that "atheism" is a much simpler concept than Christianity, with a lot less baggage and absolutely no threats, sacred books, or dogma associated with it. It merely requires lack of belief in god(s) to self-identify as an atheist, nothing more.

Jedi Mind Trick

Mageth:
Okay, I can work that...
You direct your accusation at first cause, namely God. You argue that because God created all things God created evil. Being omniscient he knew of the evil that would result from his creation and yet still created therefore it is implied that God is the source of the evil that he condemns. Yes?

Faith tells us that God created all things. If he is God then faith also tells us that he has the right to create. Having the right to create, faith tells us that God chose to create relational beings. Having capacity for true relationship necessitates freedom to reject the relationship. If that freedom is not present then the relationship is forced and would amount to a rape. God would have created for himself slaves for some sick need or deficiency and would show himself to be most insecure.

God shows his regard for his relational creatures by giving them the right to reject him and he does not fear the gift of choice that he gave. He is a gentleman and will not force himself on anyone.

Another word for Christianity:
Relationship

So,
Since God created all and this creation rebels against him and since I believe in him It seems I have some problems to solve.

First a few questions come to my mind.

Why did God choose to offend his own nature and put it to the test? Why does he endure our hatred and offence? Worse yet why choose to take on flesh as a man and walk among the offenders and be condemned to death by those who are unrighteous, those who's natures are contrary to his perfect nature?

Since I believe in God and I admit that what he created has become a mess then I might conclude:

1) God is cruel and created us for torment.
or
2) God is inept and was unaware of his actions in creating.
or
3) God is wise and good and has a plan for all this and that I, being limited in my knowledge, am as yet unaware of its perfection.

I choose option 3 and allow therefore that Christianity is also:
Mystery

Mageth Again:
Indeed, that’s pretty close to the idea... some misstatements but pretty close.
I would say that God has found a way to remain true to his nature and at the same time justify those who offend that nature.

Again I say Christianity is also:
Mystery

kciredor reprah

"Slavery"

"Slavery" "Slavery"

Mageth

Originally posted by little
You direct your accusation at first cause, namely God. You argue that because God created all things God created evil. Being omniscient he knew of the evil that would result from his creation and yet still created therefore it is implied that God is the source of the evil that he condemns. Yes?

Well, I didn't argue it that way to my knowledge, but I do agree with that. Except, of course, for the fact that I lack belief in said God.

Faith tells us that God created all things. If he is God then faith also tells us that he has the right to create. Having the right to create, faith tells us that God chose to create relational beings. Having capacity for true relationship necessitates freedom to reject the relationship. If that freedom is not present then the relationship is forced and would amount to a rape. God would have created for himself slaves for some sick need or deficiency and would show himself to be most insecure.

OK, if that's what your faith tells you. However, God's alleged desire for relationship with us has that one rather obvious caveat - what allegedly becomes of those of us that "choose" not to have the relationship. (Once again, I cannot choose or reject to have a relationship with a being that I don't believe exists).

God shows his regard for his relational creatures by giving them the right to reject him and he does not fear the gift of choice that he gave.

Once again, since I lack belief in said God, I cannot exercise my "right to reject him".

And if he doesn't fear the choice, why consequences if I don't so "choose"?

He is a gentleman and will not force himself on anyone.

Perhaps, though that proverbial gun to your head if you don't "choose" him is quite persuasive to some, you must admit.

Another word for Christianity:
Relationship

Riiight - choose Me or else!

So,
Since God created all and this creation rebels against him and since I believe in him It seems I have some problems to solve.

Perhaps before we get to your questions, you can answer the question of why God knowingly created this creation knowing that it would "rebel" against him resulting in the vast majority of the creatures he desires to have relationship with ending up in not-so-pleasant circumstances because they exercised the "right to reject him" he so nobly gave them?

First a few questions come to my mind.

Why did God choose to offend his own nature and put it to the test? Why does he endure our hatred and offence? Worse yet why choose to take on flesh as a man and walk among the offenders and be condemned to death by those who are unrighteous, those who's natures are contrary to his perfect nature?

Because he f****d up creation in the first place? (forgive my French). Corollary: how could a perfect God create an imperfect world?

Since I believe in God and I admit that what he created has become a mess then I might conclude:

1) God is cruel and created us for torment.

Indeed, it seems many of us are so destined.

or
2) God is inept and was unaware of his actions in creating.

Yes, there is definitely some indications that that may be the case. Read Carl Jung's Answer to Job for an interesting take on that very point.

or
3) God is wise and good and has a plan for all this and that I, being limited in my knowledge, am as yet unaware of its perfection.

Aah, the old "unknown purpose" defense. Of course, if indeed you and I are limited in our knowledge of and "unaware", then we can really come to no conclusions about the nature and purpose of said God. "God is wise and good and has a plan for all this" is merely speculation, wishful thinking at this point. You're back to "faith", in other words.

And of course, you left off at least one other important option:

4) Said God does not exist and the stories and speculations about him are myths.

Since you believe, that option is not relevant to you, but it sure is to me and a lot of others.

I choose option 3 and allow therefore that Christianity is also:
Mystery

In which case, you can really claim no special knowledge about God and his purposes. Options 1 and 2 are just as likely as option 3 if it's all a Mystery.

Indeed, that’s pretty close to the idea... some misstatements but pretty close.

I think it's spot-on.

I would say that God has found a way to remain true to his nature and at the same time justify those who offend that nature.

Again I say Christianity is also:
Mystery

But since it's "Mystery", then you can claim no special knowledge about God's nature.

Jedi Mind Trick

It is late Mageth, at least for me...
I will come back to your comments later as it seems we are running in circles.

I will adress one now though... you said:
There are many things I do not know about God and indeed I am simply informed by faith but he revealed some things about his nature that can be known.

I am indeed "little" and claim no special knowledge other than that which he has proclaimed openly.

Good night to you.

Mageth

Originally posted by little
There are many things I do not know about God and indeed I am simply informed by faith but he revealed some things about his nature that can be known.

I am indeed "little" and claim no special knowledge other than that which he has proclaimed openly.

But therein lies the problem...if much of God and his nature is a mystery, then one can only trust by faith even that what he has supposedly revealed or "proclaimed openly" is true. As an extreme example, part of the mystery may be that God is a liar by nature.

What it boils down to is that God is ineffable, and no claims about his nature, powers, methods, supposed revelations and proclamations, or anything else about him are to be considered "true".

Good night to you.

And to you, peace.

Thanatoast

Unsupported - as in by any purported evidence: historical, archaeological, logical, etc.

Repressive - with a heavy emphasis on the genitals.

Bleak - especially when contemplating the doctrine of hell, which posits an everlasting torment for counltess billions of non-Christians. Of course, this has often been one of the direct causes of deconversion for many a one-time believer, including your's truly.

Jedi Mind Trick

Top of the Marnin to ya Mageth and a Happy Saint Paddy’s Day at that! (I know, I know, you lack belief in saints)
Be that as it may it appears I have a wee bit O ground cover…
Ahh… Indeed it does appear to be an obvious caveat doesn’t it lad? It is and rightly so, for with freedom comes responsibility.
We are given this life to begin with, we rent this time here it is not ours for the keepin don’t ya know. If a person so chooses to reject the sincerely offered free gift of relationship then God, being the gentleman that he is, will not force himself on that one for an eternity. And how dare that one who has so rejected a free offer turn and demand by right some other claim to eternal life. Ach! that gets me Ire up just to think of it and I am just a poor beggar like the rest don’t ya know.

Most Christians fall into two camps on this point:
Annihilation (i.e. final and complete destruction of every aspect of the person so consumed; no eternal torment)
Or
Eternal Torment (i.e. eternal separation from the source of life which results in self imposed torment)

I lean toward Annihilation.

So another one word for Christianity is:
Responsibility

The trigger has been pulled and the sentence carried out we all are born dead and bound for the pit but to “whosoever will�? he offers the free gift of eternal life from the grave. He who condemned me before I was born is now my defender! Indeed it is persuasive.

So another one word for Christianity is:
Life for those who are already condemned.

and
For some perfect reason no doubt?
Creation is painful and he is not done with creation yet but I –being in time and with limited perspective- am called to trust him. Again faith, freedom and responsibility.

I’ve only ever claimed to coming from the perspective of faith don’t ya know. For without faith it is impossible to please God. It is his intention –I believe- that this life lead us to him by faith or -if we choose- away from him by any other means.

So another one word for Christianity is:
Trust

Light

Only the evil will say that God created them too.

Atheists are anti-God and therefore anti-christ.

Only the Godless are anti-God.

It is these anti-god atheists who have formed theselves into the evil empire and would weild their power against the good people of this planet Earth.

Chuck Fristians is a good example of anti-christian thinking.

Q. Did you here about the fire downtown?

A. Quiet! That's planned for tomorrow.

Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds want to make fools of you all.

They proclaim their "Americanism" and take part of Thanksgiving whilst declaring that:

They want to "Stuff Christian Turkies for Christmas."

Cut the throats of the Christian Infidels and bleed them to death as Satans little helpers like to do.

Put all Christians to death on their collective crucifix, murder, steal and covet all that Christians have worked for.

Take over ALL Christian countries, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Scandinavia, Russia, South America, everywhere.

And yet just who is running Africa?

It looks like Africa is running America.