Mageth

The problem is that the words between the brackets are not found in the original Hebrew. If "like a lion" is the correct reading, the underlying Hebrew reads like this:

"For dogs surround me; the assembly of the wicked encircle me; like a lion my hands and my feet."

I don't know you, so I don't know what credentials you have. Are you versed in Hebrew and in interpreting old texts? I'll admit I'm not, so I'll defer to the Jewish (or otherwise) scholars for their translations.

I find it interesting that people here keep quoting Jewish "anti-missionary" websites

Remember that the christian interpretation of these scriptures might be viewed as an "anti-Judaism" interpretation, so it kinda makes sense. The OT is first and foremost a Jewish religious book. From my perspective, their interpretation carries as much (if not more) weight than a Christian interpretation. And I find it particularly interesting when they point out scriptures (e.g. Ps. 22) where Christian redaction has changed the text to better fit what was "recorded" in the Gospels.

Please keep in mind that Jewish people have had plenty of time to develop their own "apologetics" against Christianity as well.

One major thing that these websites ignore in these prophecies is that whether they interpret them as prophecies today, their own people did interpret them as prophecies during Jesus time.

Only a relatively small percentage of the Jewish population interpreted them as prophecies at the time. Most Jews did not accept Jesus as the messiah - there are many messianic prophecies in the OT that he did not meet. [edited to add: even if he did meet the few selected ones xians claim]

Also, there is the possibility (to me, a probability) that the Gospels, written long after the events, were at least partially fabrications, possibly based on the life of a teacher who may or may not have actually existed, where events were invented or modified to fit selected OT prophecies.

And they didn't do a great job of it, either. For example, what were Jesus' last words on the cross, that were supposedly prophesied in the OT?

Verses from Psalms and other OT books were frequently quoted as prophecy whether we would do such a thing today or not...

Oh, I hear plenty of people quoting Daniel, Isaiah as well as NT texts as prophecies today.

Therefore, yes, Psalms which were written about a specific time period latter came to have a secondary/prophetic meaning to Jews.

To Christians, not Jews. Jews view some scripture as history, some as prophetic. I don't think Jews typically give prophetic meaning to historic scriptures or secondary prophetic meaning to prophetic scriptures.

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

diana

I find it interesting that people here keep quoting Jewish "anti-missionary" websites.

As Mageth pointed out, the OT is their holy scripture. I consider them far more versed in its meaning than Xns, or Muslims, or atheists, for that matter.

Please keep in mind that Jewish people have had plenty of time to develop their own "apologetics" against Christianity as well.

You mean like the list of messianic prophesies I listed that you blatantly ignored? Yes. I'm sure compiling that list to discount your savior took them centuries.

One major thing that these websites ignore in these prophecies is that whether they interpret them as prophecies today, their own people did interpret them as prophecies during Jesus time.

So far, this is a baseless assertion. Would you mind offering some supporting evidence? I'm keen to learn.

After you bring evidence that the Jews "of Jesus' time" interpreted them as prophesies, you may then proceed to explain to me how this would make them any more "prophetic" in reality. Thanks in advance for your time and effort.

Verses from Psalms and other OT books were frequently quoted as prophecy whether we would do such a thing today or not...

And did this actually make them prophesy? Or just quoted as such?

If my father says to me, "They beat me until I was bleeding, and they broke my arms and nose, then stole my tennis shoes," I can quote my dad as a prophet with this phrase, I guess. That doesn't make what he says a prophecy, does it? Let's say it eventually happens to me. Was he prophesying something I'd undergone, or do we have a meaningless coincidence on our hands?

Therefore, yes, Psalms which were written about a specific time period latter came to have a secondary/prophetic meaning to Jews.

Please produce supporting evidence.

By the tone of your post to DavidH, I would not say that you are being reasonable and open-minded, much less very kind.

Here's your chance to prove how unreasonable I'm being. Support your assertions. I've told you how I go about determining what to accept and what to reject already. Use this criteria to defend your position.

I've already addressed the "open-minded" bit, but I'll add that those people who accuse others of being dishonest are usually projecting their own problems. In my experience, the same is true of accusing others of being closed-minded.

I've never claimed to be kind. Willful ignorance (and when you blatantly ignore your opponent's objections, you categorize yourself thusly) I have precious little patience with. I've explained several objections I have to his theory, and they were ignored or dismissed as inconsequential. When a person challenges others then, when those others respond, behaves as though they have nothing worthy of consideration, he deserves whatever derision he gets.

I marvel at your ability to blatantly select a few straw men from my post, ignoring the many good points I had. If you wish to be taken seriously, reply to my post completely. Address each point. Refute each point or explain it away if you can. To even pretend to argue with me if you can't is to demonstrate to the world your selective blindness and the shakiness of your position.

I believe that DavidH is simply trying to help you and others realize that there is at least a possibility that the predictions could be true and could have been fulfilled by Jesus.

And if he has to ignore or dismiss all counter-arguments as inconsequential, then...obviously this bothers him not at all. But I doubt the intellectual honesty of anyone who "tries to help others realize" anything but is not willing to address their objections.

d

Haran

I'd like to respond, but it may be tomorrow, friday, or the weekend.

Until then, I am not a scholar, but I do have a basic working knowledge of the languages behind the Bible. I am also familiar with the critical texts behind the translations.

Therefore, I suppose I have no "credentials", but then I feel it is unfair to ask them of me and not the author of the articles to which you link.

If you desire some means of knowing what I know about the languages, read my posts on the <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=51&t=000104&p=1" target="_blank">Who wrote the NT</a> thread. Here, I show that the UK Atheist website, linked to by Michael Turton, gives incorrect information about the earliest papyrus of the NT (p52). This displays a little of my knowledge of Greek and I have studied more Hebrew than Greek...

If this still doesn't convince you that I know what I'm talking about, then I suppose I can't help you. However, you might want to check the "credentials" of the authors of the websites you posted as well before believing and quoting them...

Thanks,
Haran

Mageth

Haran:

Here's a link to the credentials of the authors of the link I posted: <a href="http://people.atl.mediaone.net/rabbi/whoweare.html" target="_blank">who we are</a>.

They seem to be pretty well credentialed, beyond just a basic working knowledge of the language.

Talulah

What is the big deal about obscure OT prophesies? It is obvious to me that they can be taken any way the reader wants to take them. As evidenced by this thread, they can be twisted in ways far removed from the actual text. I fail to see the significance of this line of discussion.

If you believe that a man-god came to earth and did a bunch of miracles and then managed to raise himself from the dead contrary to all logic and reason, then, why do you need to make up prophesies to point out that he was supposed to? Just believe and give the rest of us a rest from the nonsence.

You want to prove to me that Jesus existed, did what the bible says and was the son of god then prove that he EXISTED, and forget all the other crap.

Waiting until that happens....

Talulah

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Talulah ]</p>

Kosh

It's all they have.

They are a dying race.

Jayhawker Soule

Good Grief!

What I see is that the parallels are such that you would have literally thought that some Christian apologist, writing decades after the presumed crucifixian, versed in the Psalms and marketing the cult to others versed in, and respectful of, the Psalms, enhanced the story.

• There is zero evidence that David wrote Psalm 22.
• There is zero evidence of clothes divided up and lots cast for them.
• There is zero evidence that any of the other events mentioned in Psalm 22 took place.

So: on the one hand you have a poorly executed prophesy of a entirely unsubstantiated miracle; on the other hand, emendation. "[w]hat is so amazing about this" is your willingness to proclaim the prophesy/miracle -- both amazing and sad.