Biff the unclean

SG Let me explain my position when it comes to " the billion of years before I even was". In my spiritual belief, I accept the concept that God intended for me to exist and live even before creation.
So what? I intend to construct some new book shelves. I really need them, the volumes are piling up. I have intended to make them for about three years now, I think about them on a weekly bases. Despite my intentions they do not exist. When I do build them they will last a number of years and then fall apart or be taken apart and thrown away. They will not exist again, which is exactly the same state of existence that they are in now.

Your claim seems to be that your "spirit" always existed. That you, yourself are an uncreated being--except, of course, for your "physical shell." That would pretty much end the EoG debate because YOU would be God.
If you are a created being, then there was a time before your creation when you did not yet exist. Oblivion in it's truest sense. "You" only exist as a project that God hadn't got around to yet.
So again the question arises of why Christians can look at this time when you were on the cosmic "To Do" list without flinching? Yet the very idea that when you are on the "Past projects that have been discarded" list such oblivion would be terrible. Why?
It's oblivion…you'll be oblivious to it. Just like you were before.

Can we try to have a dialogue where you and I do not dwell on assuming what the other one believes or does not believe?
That's Biff, not Bill. And how am I supposed to know that I saying that you believe things that you do not when I am addressing Heathen Dawn and didn't know you were reading this?
No problems with a deflated ego with you.

GeoTheo

If there is no Personal God, I still don't see why atheists have to be such assholes. I know a lot of nice Christians. They are the norm rather than the exception. People go to church so that they can be better people. They don't go to church to persecute gays or kill little babies, or to commit genocide or any of the stupid bullshit that they constantly get accused of day after day on this forum. The whole idea of Christianity is to love God and to love others. Loving God can only really be expressed by loving your fellow man. You can't see God but you can see your fellow man. Instinctively everybody knows they are supposed to love others. But people tend to put their self interest ahead of that and they do things to harm others. This causes people to have guilt. The whole idea of accepting Christ is to get rid of the guilt. Then you get a fresh start so you can live with yourself and keep trying to be a good person.
Hey, I have serious doubts, but I get the overall concept. At the very least, it is some type of meme or somthing that has helped man evolve. Therfore it is positive. Striving to put others first is positive. We are social creatures. We need each other. If there is no personal God, then fine. Why be such a prick about it? I haven't seen anyone come up with anything better. For all the high minded talk I think this web community is a failure, it is just a big long anti-Christian rant.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: GeoTheo ]</p>

Bible Humper

Well said, I like it!

What do you think of the nominal Xians, though, is it a case of either going all the way to be a "full" Xian or else it's no use to even bother at all, or will their hell be a bit less hot than ours?


Edit: If you are a member of one of the sects that doesn't believe in hell, change that to "will their heaven be a bit better than ours, but not as good as yours, or is being half-assed as bad as not being Xian at all?"

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: Bible Humper ]</p>

GeoTheo

What do you mean by "should be enough" enough for what? Being a moral person? No, it's not enough.
There is no law requiring you to be kind and loving to others. There is no law even requiring manners. A couple of hundred years ago you could even kill people in duel and keep slaves and still be within the law. You could beat your wife, but only with a stick of a certian diameter. So beating your wife with a small stick the width of your finger should have been "good enough"?

GeoTheo

I really don't know, Dude.
I don't belong to any sect. I was a Baptist but they asked me to leave because I believe in evolution. So I am rethinking all of my theology.
I don't really condemn them for kicking me out. In a way they were right. They said that once you question the account of creation you have to question everything. They weren't comfortable with anyone doing that in their presence I guess, which shows an underlying insecurity on their part.
The reality of their being no global flood kind of hit me pretty hard since it is an example of God's faithfulness to mankind and was one of the first covenants, it was sealed with a rainbow. The rainbow is meant to signify that God will never destroy the Earth through a flood. I get the concept but the fact that there never was a flood that destroyed the Earth kind of kills the gravity of the situation. Also the concept of the Sabath being Holy because God created the Earth in six days kind of becomes a moot point, which sheds doubt on the inspiration of the ten commandments.
Then there is the concept of the fall that kind of falls apart because Man evolved up from lower creatures, not fell from a higher state.
So then Hell seems kind of out of place, there having been no fall.
My Grandfather was a liberal Christian and used to quote Micah 5:8 (roughly) ....what is good and what does the Lord require of thee? But to do justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with thy God. So I think that little grain of truth remains. So I guess I could build on that. Seems like a lot right there. I will tell you this, just that right there caused my Grandpa to work pretty hard at it. I would not say he took "the path of least resistance by a long shot" He was very similar to Jimmy Carter in his faith. My Grandfather worked very hard at trying to bring about world peace. He was very active in the local chapter of the United Nations and organized protests to bring about a nuclear freeze.

Bible Humper

Good post, Theo.

I'm surprised that you come to Infidels, of all places, while you deal with this "crisis of faith"(though the word "crisis" might sound too strong to you).

Heathen Dawn

Biff, what you're saying is quite reasonable. Future oblivion should be no more frightening than past oblivion. But you seem to forget this is not a rational thing. I simply don't know of my past oblivion, and being a historical thing, I don't recoil at it; but future oblivion is the final step on the conveyor-belt, hence it does instill fear in me, knowing that I will reach it one day. It's all about emotions.

Remember, I didn't say I took up a believe because of evidence for it; emotional solace is what it's all about, and evidence takes a back seat. My belief in Goddess, God, reincarnation and all that is a personal matter, for me and my well-being, and I keep it to myself and only to myself. An it harm none etc...

Biff the unclean

GTMost Christians I now come up against a lot of opposition in trying to be a Christian.
Something like 82% of Americans are Christian. If the ones you know are meeting opposition then it is probably from their fellow Christians. Personal observations would indicate that this is a response to their obnoxious behavior, not their religion.
People who abstain from alcahol and don't engage in pre-marrital sex, or use profanity and attend church three times a week stand out in America.
AAAAAchoooooo! Excuse me, straw-men make me sneeze.
No one gives a rats arse what Christians do or don't do-which only involves themselves.
No one cares if Christians don't want a glass of Chardonnay. (You have to wonder what they would say about Jesus' morals what with changing water into wine, and wine being his blood and all.) But Christians want to force their views down every ones throats. They even got the United States Constitution changed once to reflect their phobia against having a "cold one" with you friends.
They are trying to force their views on a woman's right to choose and the teaching of science as opposed to Christian myths in our public school even as we speak.
The fact that these "Christians" are meeting with such opposition only shows that the rest of the Christians in America prize freedom.

Not that Christianity should be defined as a list of do's and don'ts but trying to live out the Christian faith causes you to move in a different path from the majority of those around you.
If it isn't about do's and don'ts why do they keep trying to force the rest of us to do what they want and don't what they do not?

If there is no Personal God, I still don't see why atheists have to be such assholes. I know a lot of nice Christians.
The title Atheist, to begin with, with is capitalized, christian.
I know a lot of nice Christians too. You are right, most of them are nice--despite their religion, not because of it. Most of them never mention their religion, they consider that to be in questionable taste, and not a matter for public discussion.

People go to church so that they can be better people.
Since it is impossible to tell who is a Christian and who an Atheist on the bases of their behavior, then I would say that you are mistaken. If you were correct that would mean that Atheists are basically "better people" than Theists because Theists have to go to church to improve their behavior to make it indistinguishable from that of Atheists.

They don't go to church to persecute gays or kill little babies, or to commit genocide or any of the stupid bullshit that they constantly get accused of day after day on this forum.
Christians have persecuted Atheists since the day their silly myth was concocted. Everything from burning us alive to kicking our children out of the Boy Scouts and slandering us on The View. And you don't like it because we aren't going to take this prejudice any longer. HA! Get used to it. The days Christians could pull that crap are over.

The whole idea of Christianity is to love God and to love others. Loving God can only really be expressed by loving your fellow man.
How would you know? I hear about Christian "love" everyday. You guys have got a really screwed up idea of what the word "love" means.

the whole idea of accepting Christ is to get rid of the guilt.
Then why is every Christian wallowing in guilt? Why do they think every one is a sinner, every one unworthy? Why do they think that humbleness and human suffering are virtues?

Hey, I have serious doubts, but I get the overall concept.
The overall concept is to feed you a cock and bull story and take your money.

If there is no personal God, then fine. Why be such a prick about it?
Because this isn't about God, and it never was. It's about people who only claim to be speaking for God and exploit innocent people by doing so. It's a con job.

I haven't seen anyone come up with anything better.
I haven't seen anyone come up with anything worse.

For all the high minded talk I think this web community is a failure, it is just a big long anti-Christian rant.
I can't help but notice two things.
1) On the top of every last page in this web community are the words, in large bold type, Internet Infidels "Infidels" get it?
2) I, and I imagine you too, had to search out this web site. Then I had to go through a registration process. It did not come to me, I went to it. No one rang my doorbell on Sunday morning to convince me of the "truth" of Internet Infidels. Nor does any one force me to stay.

This is a discussion board. If your religion is a private matter with you then placing it on an internet discussion board isn't something you would want to do. If you feel that it is above comment then presenting it as a subject for debate is a ridiculous thing to do. Calling the debaters "assholes" while claiming that you posses "Christian Love", and church has made you a better person, is equally ludicrous.

There is no law requiring you to be kind and loving to others. There is no law even requiring manners. A couple of hundred years ago you could even kill people in duel and keep slaves and still be within the law.
I cannot help but notice that the very same states that our great grand parents called "The Slave States" we, today call "The Bible Belt." And that these ancestors who lived in the Slave States were demonstrably religious-as are their descendants- and used the teachings of Jesus in the NT as their main defense of the institution of slavery.

Bree

Herein lies the differences between Christians and atheists. I (as in, myself) make the decision to "modify my character" and become a "better version of myself." I make that decision simply because I believe that we should constantly strive to better ourselves. Not because some God tells me I should. I am the one doing the challenging, I am the impetus for change.

I like it much better that way - it gives me control .

GeoTheo

So you worship "should"? Where did should come from? Why better yourself?