luvluv

Clutch:

Absolutely. But my answer is the only one I can give. You have the independant assumptions that I am suffering from some acute form of self-delusion (and it would have to be acute for there to be so many occurances, and for me to be trusting major decision of my life to them) and that I am either lying or exagerrating when I say that 95% or so track record that this feeling has in producing beneficial results, or that the 95% or so is the result of statistical probability. Or, you could believe, as I do, that God is really directing my life.

Faith is a decision. Take your pick.

Point being, if it weren't for the direction of God, I would never have read any science books. You assume that if God does not exist that I still would have done everything that I have done up until the present, but that is begging the question. That is assuming a priori that what I believe has been directing me is not God. I only started reading them to defend the existence of the God that I already had reasons to believe exists. You assume that I could have this belief if God did not exist, but you don't know that. And I would actually dispute it at any rate. I am not a scientifically inclined person, I never particularly enjoyed it at school. I was always more of a literary guy. I think it is likely that perhaps God allows me or helps me to like it because it is His will for me to do it. I tried reading "A Brief History of the Universe" and Bertrand Russells "Why I Am Not A Christian" before I was a committed Christian and I found them to boring to be endured for more than 15 or so pages. After becoming a Christian I got into both books and found them pretty engrossing. So, who knows?

It is continually amazing to me, for example, that I am able to "dance one step ahead of the devil" over here in my reading. I am continually amazed that what I am lead to read ends up being relevant to a discussion over here only a few days later. I just read some papers on Descartes, for example, and that's the only way I have been able to understand what Kenny is saying over on the "Do Theistic beliefs need rational support" thread. I shouldn't tell you this, but I am nowhere near as educated as roughly 80% of the people on this board are, but I am able to keep up with them in conversation (generally speaking). I think that's a minor miracle in itself!

Anyway, like I said, experiences like these probably cannot justify another person's beliefs because the naturalist can always convince themselves that I am deluded. So this argument cuts both ways:

No matter how poor the evidence for a religous experience, the devoted theist will believe it, and no matter how good the evidence for a religious experience, the devoted atheist will not believe it. Can you honestly conceive of a religious experience that you could not explain away, if that was your intention?

So I think religious experiences are good for people who already believe and not much help to anybody else. I do think there is some evidence that they happen if you do not assume that everyone who believes in them is suffering from a delusion and if you take people at their word. But if you don't, then they will never amount to evidence.

luvluv

It's hard to explain. It varies.

If feelings could be more specific than "happy" or "sad", if a feeling could actually BE "Don't leave" as opposed to the words that we use to communicate that feeling, then that is what I experienced. It was words as feelings. I knew exactly what it meant, but it wasn't in words.

That probably doesn't help.

Family Man

Well, Dad, you appear to be missing an important ingredient in my argument. The reason that you appear to be getting a MESSAGE is that you are expecting a message. Hence, you take your own thoughts and interpret it as a message from God. That's what a self-fulfilling prophecy does; it takes a expectation that has been set up for you and makes you conclude that your experiences match that prophecy.

Are you ever going to tackle the argument, or are you going to continue to dance around it as if it doesn't exist?

luvluv

Well, that's your interpretation but I am in a better position to judge the events of my own life. I'm basically totally confident that your interpretation is wrong, but as I said before I cannot prove it to you if you assume that I am self-deluded at the outset.

I was not expecting a message that day at the office. I was expecting to eat shortly. I was hungry. I was not expecting to have to wait in that office for 15 minutes before going to lunch. I was hungry. I was not expecting to meet any extraordinarily attractive girl that day. I wasn't actually looking very presentable, and I had just had a bad breakup and wasn't interested in a relationship. So, I don't see how your hypothesis is relevant to the particular situation we are discussing unless you can demonstrate that I was, in actuality, expecting everything I tell you I was not expecting.

The first time I remember God speaking to me, it was totally unexpected. I didn't believe it myself, for a little while. It used to (and still generally does) piss me off when people say "God talked to them". I considered it arrogant. Well, I know believe it happens to me. So, I did not expect that God would talk to me, many Christians do not believe God talks to people directly as individuals. I was one of those, but that was before I heard God's voice. Do with that what you will.

It's clear to me that you will not believe any religious experience is real, no matter what. So what is the point in discussing it? If you consider the possibilty that I am not deluded, then perhaps you can be persuaded. If you assume that I am deluded, then you will win every time. You seem to have made your mind up, and I admit totally that I cannot change it.

Watch for your name on TV, though.

Oxymoron

And you knew it was God... how, exactly?

luvluv

I didn't. I didn't know what was going on. I just knew I felt like crap for doing certain things, and I was getting these nagging feelings, and I thought I was going crazy. Then I heard a few sermons and the general theme of God talking to people started popping up in my Bible reading, and in my discussions with other Christians. Eventually I gave into the possibility, and I felt much "closer" to God after that. The feeling seems to know what it's talking about, and it is consistent with my Christian development and beliefs, so I believe they come from God.

In reading these boards I realize I am very fortunate, even for a theist, in the amount of confirmation I have been given in my lifetime. I wouldn't have asked for it in a lot of cases, as I do not always like what God has to say. But then I realize that inasmuch as He asks me to do things I don't want to do, that it is much more likely I am hearing from something or someone other than myself.

Or, I'm stark raving bonkers, or I'm a liar. Take your pick.

(A sort of luvluv trilema, if you will.)

Scottyman

It is much more foolish to believe that random good events can be attributed to a etheral being!

Family Man

Yes, you do. You have an obvious commitment to the position that you've taken. But I don't think you're lying; I think you're viewing your world through a theistic lens that leads to you interpret events in the way you do. But just because you THINK God is talking to you doesn't mean he is.

The operative word being believe.

And if I had my way, I'd be a famous novelist. However, my talent lay in other directions. So what? Everyone has had their failures.

It's nice to know that you were so shallow before becoming Christian. I've been married for nearly thirteen years, have two kids, and have been a productive member of society. Now, please explain to me why I should be impressed with your above confession? In other words, how does it makes you different from myself? Hint: other than gratitious references to a god, it doesn't.

You're working and studying towards becoming a "bang-up" apologist and I need an naturalistic explanation of how it happened?!! It appears that you've already supplied that explanation for me.

And what if you fail? Well, God will have steered you in another direction. That's the great thing about the personal experience argument -- regardless of what happens, God cannot fail.

Scottyman

......but it didn't work out did it? High hopes are no substitute for an actual work in effect. Like they say, "close only counts in horshoes and handgrenades".

Oxymoron

So let's get this straight. You believed the voice was God because (in essence) someone else told you so? And who told them it was God?

Or just taken in by a massive conspiracy of misinformation and ignorance.