Undercurrent

What constitutes "worship" is so ill-defined these days that you can be on your knees with your eyes closed and hands clasped praying feverishly to a saint, and so long as you don't think it's worship, it doesn't count. Except in Chick tracts, where several conversions are premised on the fact that you might be praying accidentally to the wrong deity.

I've heard of at least one villiage in Italy, though, where the local patron saint was found to have arisen as a catholic-approved version of the former local pagan deity. He did all the same miraculous deeds as the original deity (something about killing snakes), but he wasn't called a "god" so he was OK by Jehovah. Clearly the pantheon of saints fills some of the same social purpose as the old time pantheon of gods did.

Doppler

But if they have ANY power above that of human power, then they are gods. A god can do something I can't. If Mary can answer a prayer for me that no human on the this Earth can answer, then she is beyond me. That is polytheistic and illogical, in my opinion.





Yet again, if they have any powers I don't have, then they are gods. This is my opinion, but I am going to assume no one here would call me a god because I can't do anything truely divine or unique to myself that someone in the worlds hasn't, can't, or won't ever do.





That's still a middle man. Also, if they can forgive your sins for God then they can, again, do something I can't do. They are merely human. How can a human do something that is, in a technical sense, very unhuman and more divine or godly than anything we could ever do? God's workers on earth? But, what about the other sects of Christianity that don't use priests to forgive their sins, and don't use Mary as some sort of psuedo-god?

I am not entirely familiar with xianity.....care to give me a quick run down as to what it is?

Ojuice5001

Several people think that saint-praying isn't polytheism, but the Trinity is. I disagree; I think of the Trinity as merely an odd twist on monotheism, while saint-praying and belief in Satan are both true departures from monotheism.

What are the real issues between polytheism and monotheism? They are worship and the control of the world--do these qualities belong to one being alone, or to many? I realize Catholics don't technically worship the saints, but they come damn close to it.

Control of the world, on the other hand, is clearly distributed among God, the saints, and the devils. All three are seen as doing things in the world, and Satan and the saints don't need God's permission before doing something. Therefore, there are three powers in the world, not just one; thus, any form of Christianity that accepts the influence of either the Saints or the devils is in fact polytheistic--or at least dualistic, like Zoraster's religion.

BTW, Doppler, I am a polytheist myself, worshipping the Roman gods. You merely assume without argument that polytheism is a bad thing. Care to back up this assumption?

Doppler

I didn't say it was bad, but did imply it is un-Christian, and it is. That's why I believe Catholicism borders on un-Christian at bare minimum, but Christianity is often un-Christian as well. I am agnostic with no religious preference at all, so I am amazed you assume this lol

I agree with your conclusion that all christianity is polytheistic to a degree....but I am certain that those who believe in the Catholic, or even the Christian doctorine fail to believe that Satan is a god, but more a fallen angel and an evil. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know. That's why I am discussing it

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Doppler, You have an interesting definition of "god" going there. It is very anthropocentric. Namely, if there exists an entity which is capable of doing something that humans cannot, then it must be a deity. Could it not be the case that there is a continuum of entities, with animals being at one end with the least number of capabilites, followed by humans with a few more abilities (like being able to use language and control surroundings), then saints/angels with the power to do simple supernatural actions, and finally gods with unlimited (or nearly so) powers? In such a sense, a god would be required to have nearly limitless power, while saints or angels would have a decent amount of power but still very limited in comparison to gods.

Otherwise, by your definition you would have to admit that eagles are gods because they can fly and you cannot.

She may be beyond your capabilities, but this does not mean she is an all-powerful entity of the same caliber as God/et al. She only has a limited amount of power to answer some types of requests, and in no way does she have the power or authority to exercise anything more than that which the greater entities have given her.

If we posit a canine-centric viewpoint for a minute, then your definition would show that you are in fact a god. You are capable of doing a great many things that a dog simply cannot do. You can cook his food, you can provide an elaborate and almost perfectly safe shelter, you can keep him at a comfortable temperature in summer and winter, you can provide him with a playing ground safe from competing dogs, and you can see to it that he has no worries about food or comfort. A dog cannot do these things on his own, yet you would be easily able to provide for him. However, you do not have the power to cure his diseases, you do not have the power to reverse aging, you do not have the power to bring him back to life, and you do not have the power to ensure his fertility if he is sterile.

You have a great number of abilities which the dog cannot do, but there are still a number of things you simply do not have the power to do. Should we consider you a god in respect to dogs, or should we simply consider you an organism on a higher level of ability than dogs? If we agree that you are simply on a higher ability level than dogs and that you are not necessarily a dog, then we can extrapolate this to see why saints and angels have more abilities than humans, but still fall far short of gods in that their abilities are still very limited.

It is not the priest that forgives your sins, but rather God working through the priests. It is still God who forgives your sins because the priest can only forgive your sins in certain contexts. He cannot listen to your bitching outside of the confessional and forgive you informally, for example. In the contexts where priests forgive your sins, it is not the priest doing the forgiving, but God himself. The priest is the middle man and can do something you cannot do, but he is in no way a god. He is only the mechanism by which God forgives people.

Are you talking about the priests? You have to remember that it is not the priests that forgive you. God is forgiving you, and he is doing so through the priests. Thus, the priests aren't doing anything unhuman--they are simply being used by God to forgive you.

What about them? Some of these sects of xianity believe in angels and demons which have powers greater than humans, but nowhere approaching that of a god. While the believers don't necessarily pray to those entities, they still believe in them nonetheless. Are you considering them polytheistic in this respect too?

It's just a shorthand way of writing "christianity." It's a word that is commonly used in these boards, so some people shorten it to xian or xianity for Christian and Christianity respectively. It just saves time and key-strokes.

Huh? How is it that Christianity is un-Christian?

-Nick

Jackalope

They're the ho-ho-Holy Spirit's helper elves.
And before Doppler protests again, "But they can do things I can't, they must be gods," angels are clearly not gods but they can certainly do things that humans cannot.

Since all of this stuff is make-believe, it's kind of academic.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

LOL!! ho-ho-holy spirt...I'll have to remember that one.

-Nick

Jackalope

Can't claim it as my own. I stole that one from Queen of Swords. It just seemed especially apropos in this case.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

QoS? I should've guessed. It just sounds like something she would come up with.

-Nick

Tarnaak

No where in the Scriptures does it say to pray to another human...