Oolon Colluphid

Nope, it just means the earth is older than we thought.

Oolon

Oolon Colluphid

Fair enough, though I'd like to mention that Michael Shermer, in Why People Believe Weird Things, draws strong parallels between the methods and arguments of creationists and far-right Holocaust deniers.

Scary.

Oolon

scigirl

Yes indeed - however I'd like to point out that the motives for each belief are different. The similarities lie in the fact that each group denies clear evidence of something happening in the past. YECS deny science, holocaust deniers deny history.

That was a great book BTW - click
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0716733870/internetinfidelsA/" target="_blank">here</a> to see a review.

scigirl

Mediancat

The Hellbound person also trots out the tired "second law of thermodynamics" argument; refers to some scientist named "Pastuer;says that evolutionists say the world is 30 billion years old (and of course, evolutionists make no such claim; geologists do, plus I'm fairly sure the age for the Earth tops out at around five-six billion years or so, correct me if I'm wrong please); says that a "rock exploded" and that that formed the universe (?, also getting it wrong because he says evolutionists claim this about the universe when he means astronomers); and even blows an irrelevant analogy about the Big Bang ("When a gas tanker explodes, does the explosion create something useful? No," and I'm sure we can all think of some pretty good results from a gas tanker explosion if we put out mind to it).


OTOH, I'd love to see this person become a mover and a shaker in the creationist movement; the arguments are SO blatantly bogus that anyone with half a brain can see through them.

Rob aka Mediancat

GeoTheo

If someone on here posts a link to a Creationist site, it can be assured that it will be a stupid one. Some are better than others, and I actually as a creationist are offended by some, such as this one. The best ones I have seen are not preachy diatribes but deal entirely with science.
Why are they rarely posted here?
Is it easier to be an atheist in a world where all of christendom are a bunch of inbred illiterate snake handlers? Is it easier to feel satisfied with unguided purposeless evolution when the only alternative are preachy self serving diatribes against it containing obvious flaws of Science?

tgamble

Really? Can you give examples?

They've never been found...

Depends. How much power do they have?

scigirl

I couldn't have said it better myself.
The only good 'creationist' web sites I have seen ('good' meaning 'scientific' in this context) are either Christian apologetics or some form of intelligent design. I.E. They don't reject the science, they just say "goddidit this way." They are NOT yec sites. (Incidentally, a large portion of YEC "data" is usually borrowed from an apologetic or ID'er site, where ironically, the author of the data usually believes in an old earth and at least some form of evolution).
I have seen very few - please provide links.
Perhaps - sure there is some unneccesary Christian/theist bashing that goes on here at the forums. However, I think we try to distinguish 'Christian' from 'fundamentalist.' I believe that you can be fundie about anything - including atheism.

Theo, I am not an atheist because some Christians are stupid. Please read our atheist testimonies to find out why --&gt; you can find them <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=55&t=000020" target="_blank">here</a>.
I certainly don't think that those are the only two alternatives. However, most YECS seem to fall into that second category of yours.

Theo - young earth creationism is flat out wrong, it was proven wrong hundreds of years ago, and continues to be wrong. I'm sorry that us pointing out this fact to you makes you think we are all bigoted and close-minded. Would you say the same about us if we were dissing on astrologers or flat-earthers?

I didn't think so.

scigirl

GeoTheo

intelligently presented creationist site: <a href="http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/" target="_blank">http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/</a>

I think perhaps intellectual laziness has to do with why people almost never try to refute good arguements from the other side. I have seen this with Creationists as well as evolutionists. I get exasperated when Creationist literature uses piltdown man as the main target of an attack on human evolution.

scigirl

Theo,

One reason I automatically assume that a YEC site is going to be a load of garbage is because at one time in my life, I did objectively evaluate both sides (I used to be a Christian, and I believed in some form of creation).

Once you prove something is wrong, than it's kinda silly to go back and evaluate every claim again--do scientists re-prove Koch's postulates every time they discover a new virus? No.

Ok on to the site:

I would add a third:
Adam and Eve from dirt.

Exactly! So why do YECS believe it then? Oh yeah God is magical.

This is not evolution, this is abiogenesis. Already the web site has showed itself to not know what it's talking about.

No crap, Sherlock. Why do YECS always forget about the time factor? Oh yeah, they believe there was no time (earth being only 5 years old).

As to the rest, <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> Clearly, once again, no clue what the theory of evolution really says. And actually we are starting to observe these types of changes in a laboratory. I'll find that thread Lpetrich started about how insects evolved.

Theo, try again. This is just another YEC site, with bigger words and a pretty background.

scigirl

tgamble

Not really. Same old shit.

"It has never been observed in any laboratory that mutations can cause one species to turn into another."

"If we observe present processes, and make the assumption that they have have been going on at the same rate since they started, we generally come to the conclusion that the Earth could not be billions of years old. Some of the processes that have been studied that give young ages for the Earth are:

Continental erosion
Sea floor sediments
Salinity of the oceans
Helium in the atmosphere
Carbon 14 in the atmosphere
Decay of the Earth's magnetic field"

"There are only two documented cases of inanimate objects coming to life.

Pinocchio
Frosty the Snowman
Most scientists consider these two reports to be false."

"On rare instances, the DNA in an embryo is damaged, resulting in a mutant child that differs in some respect from its parent."

"For example, evolutionists accepted the Piltdown Man fraud for 40 years before someone looked at the teeth closely enough to see that someone had shaped them with a file."

"Garfield would not be funny if cats did not exhibit the traits that are so overblown in the Garfield comic strip. But everyone has seen cats acting like Garfield, and that's what makes the comic strip funny."

All those who have observed cats walking on two legs say I.

Dust on the Moon proves a young earth
<a href="http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v1i2a.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v1i2a.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v3i2f.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ridgenet.net/~do_while/sage/v3i2f.htm</a>

"The use of the geologic column to establish the age of fossils is circular. If you strip away all the camouflage, evolutionists argue that dinosaur fossils are 100 million years old because they are found in rocks that were formed 100 million years ago. The rocks are known to be 100 million years old because they contain the bones of dinosaurs that died 100 million years ago.
To an evolutionist, the fossils are the most definitive measure of age. No matter what the other evidence is, the ages determined by the fossils in the rock are the most conclusive. For example, while preparing this essay we came across a Science News article that contained the following sentence."

This is intelligent? This is your idea of honest science?! <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" /> <img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" />
<img src="graemlins/boohoo.gif" border="0" alt="[Boo Hoo]" /> <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />