Bede

Stephen T-B,

With great respect, while you may have thought long and hard, many of the atheist posters here clearly haven't. Also, simply because you have come to a conclusion after however much thought, does not mean you are right or that the question should never be revisited. It is also quite possible that Christianity is one of a number of reasonable views that have to be chosen between for utilitarian or ethical reasons.

Simply stating "I've thought about it and you are wrong" is a pretty closed minded attitude that freethinkers perhaps would rather avoid. If you are not interested in Danielus's arguments then there are plenty of other threads you can go to. Something tells me many atheists would get bored if the only thing they could do here was sniff each others bottoms all day.

Yours

Bede

Bede's Library - faith and reason

Stephen T-B

You see, I think there is a contradiction between Faith and Reason.
It has been suggested elsewhere in this thread that Faith exists in the absence of Reason - but not, obviously, in the absence of a reason to have faith.
Complicated?
Well, it looks complicated, but that’s because a reason for doing something may have nothing to do with the analytical reasoning which might persuade us that something is true.
The attempt to make Faith seem sensible, outside what it may deliver in terms of comfort, reassurance security, habit and ecstacy, invariably leads to a series of claims which leap across bottomless chasms from one tenuous proposition to another.
Now it would indeed be very boring here at Infidels if Believers never came to challenge the Un-believers, but if I may say so, I think they choose the wrong ground on which to challenge us. You see, for us Reason defeated Faith, so the attempt to recruit it on the side of Faith is, frankly, a complete waste of time.
There may be other things beyond Reason which we should be considering. I’m sure you think so?

Infidelettante

quote: JTVrocher

There are no writings in the NT that are contemporaneous with Jesus. There is no eye witness account of the life of Jesus in the NT.

Then are we to say that because someone wrote something within, oh, a decade or so of the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension that that someone was an actual witness to the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension? What the equivalent to a news flash was in the first century is not at question here. As is so often the case you ignore the request for eye witness testimony in favor of assigning dates to the NT which no one accepts as accurate.

The earliest dates I have seen are those of the Pauline letters which do you no good as he failed to catch Jesus in the flesh, a fact born out by the obvious lack of knowledge Paul exhibits about the life of Jesus. It would no doubt be of great use if you were to read his letters and note each fact he relates regarding the life of Jesus.

You may find it helpful to narrow the field a bit by noting only those places where Paul agrees with the Synoptic accounts regarding the question at hand. You will first need to find some agreement in Mark, Matthew, and Luke as to the trial, execution, burial, resurrection, and ascension but that should not concern you overly much as “the gospels constitutes several sufficiently consistent and reliable attestations as to the life, claims, death, and resurrection of Jesus.”

I remind you that the original dilemma I posed for you was whether you are in communication with some source existing prior to and outside the universe which has revealed to you the manner and purpose for the creation. I take it that source is the God of the Bible and it is the revelation which you rely upon. The task before you is to prove the Bible genuine and trustworthy else your source is false and dishonest.

You may delay the study of the Pauline letters and their relation to the Synoptic Gospels if you like though I do not doubt you would improve your skills at apologetics for having done it. It would surely help your case if you were to show that the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels are in agreement about the final days of Jesus. If you were to accomplish it I would, at the earliest opportunity declare your God true and his word genuine and trustworthy.

On second thought, I could never let you have Genesis so easily. Or Leviticus. Or Daniel. The virgin birth. The slaughter of the innocents. 40 years in Sinai. The Red Sea. Who sold Joseph to whom? Kill what you can’t f**k or eat boys, God’s on our side. The walls that didn’t come tumbling down. Paul the Pharisee or was ‘ee fuzzy? Peter whose peter was a rock and how did Jesus know about the cock? ‘The Day the Earth Stood Still.’ Staring Joshua and Patricia Neal. ‘The eulogy for Moses will be given by Moses.’ ‘Call me Ishmael. An’ this is my best bud Jonah.’ Captain ‘Ahab did evil in the sight of God’. ‘Iron 99.9% pure, so pure it floats.’ The eclipse no one noticed. ‘Tinkl, tinkl widdle tar how I wonda wat you awa.’ ‘Well, you know little Billy the stars are holes God punched in the big metal pan that we call the sky.’ ‘This just in, the city of Tyre has been wiped of the face of the earth, wait…no? This just, in Tyre is still there.’ ‘WTF did you do to my fig tree?’ What are you talking…I’ve got a three day weekend coming! Friday afternoon, all day Saturday, it’s only Sunday morning…tell him to go F hisself…no wait..tell’im I’ll be there soon as I can…s**t workin’ on Sunday again. ‘You know little Billy that when it rains God opens all the widows in the sky to let the water out.’ Hey you! Yeah you wit dah boat. These animals are leavin stuff all over my yard, what you gonna do about it? Oh yeah, like I’m gonna take that from a guy wit a big ass boat an twenty million animals in his front yard. Like he said about the shark, You gonna need a bigger boat.’ ‘Come and look at this, they’re building this big ass building, let’s us go down…’ ‘You can’t say “us” you nitwit we’re teaching them to be monotheists’ ‘So now you want me to lie to them? It was your idea to put cosmic stuff like eternal life in fruit and look where that got us.’ ‘You are never going to let me forget that are you.’ ‘You’re damned right…wait, I think I got something here, damnation, whata ya think? I think it could work but I need details, details.’ ‘Give us a second we’re thinking here.’ ‘You did it again, you just did it again.’ ‘WTF did you do to my swine?’ ‘What did you say?’ ‘Nothing.’ I heard you say something.’ ‘I didn’t say anything.’ ‘I heard it I tell you.’ ‘I’m an ass, we don’t talk.’ ‘Oh, right. I heard it though.’ ‘Whatever.’ ‘Don’t look now but the sun is not moving. I said don’t look, why do you do that?’ ‘You’re right, it stopped.’ ‘I know it stopped, what are we going to do?’ ‘Think we could AWOL out of here?’ ‘Worth a try, but if those guys can stop the sun we might do better on their side, long term that is.’ ‘Nice and slow now, no hurry, no hurry at all, just taking a little walk, hi how are you? Yeah, weird. Just walking it off you know, kinda tense and all. Real strange ain’t it my buddy and I were just talking about it being stopped and all. No, no just looking for a shady spot. You know, smok’em if ya gott’em an all.’ Yeah well it don’t look to good to us either to tell the truth. You too? OK, nice and slow just taking a little walk here.’ ‘And God said let there be light and God...’ ‘Wrong, wrong, wrong.’ ‘Who is doing this me or you?’ ‘Ok, mister smarty pants but you just made light and you didn’t make the sun yet.’ ‘Out of my way, I’ll show you suns… what’s going on, I made billions and billions of suns, where are they?’ ‘How far away did you put them? Well it does so matter! You put them so far away the light won’t show up for billions and billions of years! Where did you get your God license ? Sears?’ ‘I have had just about all I can take of you.’ ‘Like there’s something you can do.’ We’ll think of something.’ ‘You did it again. You just did it again.’

JT

Stephen T-B

Some wonnerful things happened in them Biblical days of oh so long ago.
WHY DON'T THEY HAPPEN NO MORE?
Did god get bored?
Perhaps he didn't get bored. Perhaps he's decided to fry us:
“PRESS RELEASE
For Immediate Release: TUESDAY 17 JUNE 2003

NEW EVIDENCE WARNS OF POSSIBLE GLOBAL WARMING
'CATASTROPHE' THIS CENTURY

Global warming over the next hundred years could trigger a catastrophe which
rivals the worst mass extinction in the planet's entire history, according
to new evidence unearthed by scientists at Bristol University.

The researchers have discovered that a mere six degrees of global warming
was enough to wipe out up to 95% of the species which were alive on Earth at
the end of the Permian period, 251 million years ago.

Up to six degrees of warming is now predicted for the next century by UN
scientists from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, if nothing is
done about emissions of the greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide,
which cause global warming.

The end-Permian mass extinction is now thought to have been caused by
gigantic volcanic eruptions, which triggered a runaway greenhouse effect and
nearly put an end to life on Earth. Conditions in what geologists have
termed this 'post-apocalyptic greenhouse' were so severe that only one large
land animal was left alive, and it took 100 million years for species
diversity to return to former levels.

This dramatic new finding is revealed in a book by Bristol University's Head
of Earth Sciences, Professor Michael Benton.”

OK Rad: not god frying us. It's us wicked evil humans doing it. And who is leading the way in heating up the world with their prodigious emissions of green-house gases? Why, the God-fearing Amercians and their Christian leaders who won't sign international accords intended to reduce Global Warming.

danielius

Dating of the gospels indicates that they were written within 30-60 years of the crucifixion. This is within the 'eyewitness' period. The gospels were, in part, drawn from the recollections of those contemporaneous with the lifetime of Christ (Luke indicates strongly that he actively interviewed eyewitnesses who were living at the time of Jesus), and from the oral traditions of the earliest Christians. Two of the four Gospel writers are held to have been actual eyewitnesses of Jesus's life and ministry.

It is for you to demonstrate important disagreements between the accounts.

Time for your medication, I think.

Danielius

HRG

I think you are confusing tautologies with general propositions which happen to hold in our reality.

"Everything is caused" is not a tautology, because universes are conceivable where it is false. Thus "being caused" is a meaningful property, whether or not it holds for all objects within out reality.
And I clarified the objections

Quantum theories say otherwise.
Do you mean finite in time or finite in space (or both) ?

Current observations tend to indicate that the universe is infinite. Only the observable part may be finite.
OK. So we have a synonym for "everything". What's the problem ?
Who said that everything needs to be "meaningful" - and to whom ?
Special pleading for God ?

<snip>

Now that's something I can heartily agree with. That's why are able to define our own meanings.

But of course there is no reason why anything should have a meaning, unless we have defined one.

Regards,
HRG.

Stephen T-B

If it takes a mind to give something meaning, does it also take a mind to give something reality?
If not, is meaning more important than reality, or is it merely a human construct which allows us to evaluate our surroundings and experiences?
And does god need meaning as well as reality? If he lacked it, to what extent would he be diminished?”

Biff the unclean

Dating of the gospels indicates that they were written within 30-60 years of the crucifixion. This is within the 'eyewitness' period.
With a life expectancy at the time being in the low 30's that is pushing it.
And of all the gospels only the Acts of John claimed to be an eyewitness account. It is even written in the first person.
But it's banned. It's Gnostic. In fact most of the gospels from that period are banned. Most of the gospels tell a different story about Jesus. The Acts of John says that his feet floated in the air and Jesus never touched the ground. It says that no two people saw Jesus as the same person. When John and James first met him James saw an old bald man and John a young boy.
These alternate gospels weren't banned until well into the fourth century and then for political reasons and not historic accuracy.
So what makes you think that you have the right gospels? If they are correct because of when they were written why are the Gnostics and Arian ones from the exact same publishing date wrong?

Luke indicates strongly that he actively interviewed eyewitnesses who were living at the time of Jesus
Luke also presents the plot and dialogue from Euripides play The Bacchae and renames it Paul on the road to Damascus. We can take anything Luke says with a large grain of salt.
Two of the four Gospel writers are held to have been actual eyewitnesses of Jesus's life and ministry.
Folktales. No one even knows the gospel writer's real names.

It is for you to demonstrate important disagreements between the accounts.
Jesus has three different sets of last words. Judas dies twice. No two accounts of the "empty tomb" match, Jesus comes back to life for one or forty days, Jesus first appears to his Apostles in different locations as much as 80 miles apart. That's a start, there's lots more.

Abel Stable

Here's the breakdown of those disagreements:
Link

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What time did the women visit the tomb?
Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)

Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)

Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)

John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)


Who were the women?
Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)

Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)

Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)

John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)


What was their purpose?
Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)

Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)

Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)

John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)


Was the tomb open when they arrived?
Matthew: No (28:2)

Mark: Yes (16:4)

Luke: Yes (24:2)

John: Yes (20:1)


Who was at the tomb when they arrived?
Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)

Mark: One young man (16:5)

Luke: Two men (24:4)

John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?
Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)

Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)

Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)

John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)


What did the messenger(s) say?
Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)


Did the women tell what happened?
Matthew: Yes (28:8)

Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)

Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)

John: Yes (20:18)


When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)

Mark: Yes (16:10,11)

Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)

John: No (20:2)


When did Mary first see Jesus?
Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)

Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)

John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)


Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?
Matthew: Yes (28:9)

John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)


After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?
Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)

Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)

Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)

John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)

Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)


Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?
Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)

Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)

Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)

John: In a room, at evening (20:19)


Did the disciples believe the two men?
Mark: No (16:13)

Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)


What happened at the appearance?
Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)

Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)

Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)

John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)


Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?
Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday

Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday

John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)

Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)


Where did the ascension take place?
Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee

Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)

Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)

John: No ascension

Paul: No ascension

Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)

Infidelettante

Quote, Danielius
Once again I point out that there are no eyewitness accounts in the Gospels. The weakness of your claim is revealed in your reluctance to actually name the two writers you rely upon. Having done so would surely, as you no doubt know, open them to criticism.

That Luke has built his account on second hand information is a rare admission on your part that the Gospels are not the trustworthy documents some claim them to be. I welcome such honesty and commend you for it.

quote:JTVrocher
It would surely help your case if you were to show that the accounts in the Synoptic Gospels are in agreement about the final days of Jesus. If you were to accomplish it I would, at the earliest opportunity declare your God true and his word genuine and trustworthy.

But Danielius, I am not the one who has attempted to prove his religion as a reasonable world view by citing the Bible in its defense. That would be you. You chose to use the life of Christ to prove the Bible genuine and trustworthy. It is to you the further defense of the Bible falls, not me.

You have a delightful way of not answering direct challenges and of turning arguments around on your opponents. I can only guess that this is due to your unwillingness to actually develop arguments against those directed at your claims.

In any event, Biff the unclean and Able Stable have taken care of the problem of the inconsistent accounts of the resurrection and have done so in a manner far beyond my poor abilities.

Thank you for your help BTU and AS. It was very kind of you.

quote:JTVrocher
On second thought, I could never let you have Genesis so easily. Or Leviticus. Or Daniel. The virgin birth. The slaughter of the innocents. 40 years in Sinai. The Red Sea. Who sold Joseph to whom? Kill what you can’t f**k or eat boys, God’s on our side. The walls that didn’t come tumbling down. Paul the Pharisee or was ‘ee fuzzy?... .... ...

I had second thoughts about the last section of my post. If you could pick out a few of the situations, conditions, events or statements in that section and relate them to contradictions, falsehoods, and inconsistencies in the Bible which they allude to I would feel that I have helped you better understand the Word of God. It never hurts to take the opportunity to become a more skillful apologist, don’t you think?

Perhaps I should break it down in another reply line by line so you can understand each one and so more easily apply yourself to them. It was great fun to write and I hope as much fun for you to dispute.

Since your entire world view rests on the reliability of scripture I should think you would recognize the overarching need to study them in order to ‘give an answer to every man’ as Paul commanded.

I remind you that the original purpose of this thread was to ask if Christianity’s world view is reasonable. In an effort to understand your thinking I asked you to identify the source of your information about the creation of the universe and just how that source had revealed this information to you. I asked that you prove the source and the revelation to be genuine and trustworthy.

You have offered a weak argument in favor of Christ with the intent to apply his life to the defense of your position. That offering has failed, so far, to prove your point. Could you reformulate it with more detail? The names of the two writers of the Gospels you give as reliable would be a good start. Remember, Luke uses second hand accounts so that only leaves two to choose from. If you like add John into the mix. Though we have been discussing only the Synoptic Gospels if you add John you have three choices.

BTW, I take my drugs religiously.

JT