Photocrat

You don't quite seem to understand, Helen. I've been where RW went; I identify. In the middle of that black night not so very long ago I was there; however, I turned the other way.

From what I understant, RW has been suffering from depression lately. Depression is an ugly thing; I definately feel for anyone who goes through it--theist, atheist, friend or foe. It's one of the most painful things you can undergo :[

As the others have commented, knowing what we do, we'd put RW on suicide watch right now. Suddenly cutting one's self off from everyone they know [he's dissappeared, SFAIK] is usually a bad sign. I've actually done that once [to a more limited extent] so I should recognize what it's like and the feelings involved...

Helen, by this logic I should not care at all that others suffer. It's all God's problem, right? This is why I don't hold to that brand of Calvinism, among other things. But this isn't the place to have a long discussion over theology, I suppose. So are we really not here to bear each other's burdens? Forgive me, but that appears to be the logical conclusion of 'putting God in His place,' as you put it; though I should hope that you disagree.

Galatians 6:2 "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

If you want to understand; understand this: depression is an ugly thing. Haven't you been through it, too? You know what the cure is, right?

That was not sarcasm, Helen. I changed the ordinary word 'favor' to 'courtesy' to try and keep it from being interpreted the wrong way. I do not hate you, nor do I mean for there to be any venom in any of these words; whether they're in this post or the last.

Proverbs 9:9 "Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning."

You weren't there, Helen.

That is what several others here said when I discussed this with them. I, obviously, cannot speak for all Christians; I am merely repeating what was said. This is not the only forum on the net--many of us also frequent others & it is of them I speak. The mention of 'conviction' is not far from a direct quote of one of the comments, so far as I remember it.

You're welcome to be skeptical of this, however.

As to the above, it is a matter of fact; unless they all lied to me. I do not believe that to be the case.

Indeed, I am surprised as well, but not that surprised. This is not so new to me, Helen. I know what people say in times like this is not always to be taken at face value.

Mark my words -- very few people can go through something like this without saying something they later regret [or should regret].

Been there. Done that. :[

Galations 6:10 "Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith."

Photocrat

It is the nature of these events, in my observation of them, that everyone becomes introspective to the point of selfishness; then they manage to say something they'll later regret in their anguish.

It has happened to someone every time, without fail, in those observations. It is not yet 'later', BTW.

Mageth

Originally posted by Spirit Branded:
You used the Rainbow Analogy to portray illusion.

You know perfectly well that two people are incabable of seeing an illustion.


Two people are perfectly capable of seeing a rainbow. As stated, there is no real "rainbow" - only an illusion projected from within the mind. And note that they each see a different rainbow.

Thousands, Hundreds of Thousands, Millions of people have been touched in their lives by the spirit of Christ.

Your perception that these reflected perceptions of Christ and actual changes in people's lives are not real reflections of Christ are exactly that ... a perception.

And so is your perception of Christ and that the changes in people's lives are caused by the "spirit of Christ." People's lives are changed by all sorts of things, including faiths other than christianity.

If asked, a majority of people would answer that rainbows are real physical objects, visible in the distance, which they are not. A popularly held belief is not necessarily a true belief.

People are the droplets in the rainbow, Christ is the light that shines through them, and we are all potential witnesses to the truth.

Nice analogy, but there's still no actual rainbow - just a projection of people's minds, in an attempt to see something "real" behind what their senses are receiving.

Mageth I am not inclined to rely on the faulty human perception of people like yourself whose eyes are turned away from the truth.

I regard you as an unreliable witness.

If I "see" a rainbow, there's an actual physical phenomenon that's behind the illusion, explainable through science. Likewise, science has come a long way in its investigation of the brain's role in our (illusory) perceptions of "spirituality." Like the rainbow, our minds project spiritual explanations for experienced "paranormal" phenomena (e.g. a "change" in someone's life) which don't appear to have a "natural" explanation - even though a bit of serious inspection typically reveals one or more alternative, naturalistic explanations.

It's not fair of you to accuse me of being turned away from the "truth." The truth is what I seek. If there is demonstrable truth behind the claims of spirituality, I would accept it. A lifetime of searching has so far only revealed it as an illusion.

IMO, you demonstrate that you may not be truly seeking the truth as you seem to think you are by ruling me out as an "unreliable witness" because I interpret the "rainbow" differently than you. A truth seeker would be open to my viewpoint, and curious as to why someone like me sees the rainbow differently.

daemon

Metacrock: Nice of you Stan. Since you guys are taking him off our hands, here's a list of things he'll be needing that he's left behind with us:
1) unconditional love

daemon23: Nope, sorry, we atheists can love unconditionally as well. Unless you're saying you guys aren't going to love him anymore, in which case, that's not very unconditional.

Metacrock: Meta =>I didn't say we aren't going to love him anymore. But I was an atheist I never found any atheists with unconditional love, or any other kind for that matter. I've found a few Christians here and there with it. True the vast majority are clueless about it, but some have it. No so with my experince of atheists.

It's not our fault your experience with atheists is so limited.

Metacrock: 2) people who would be willing to die for him if worse case senerios of persecutation came true

daemon23: Perhaps, but it's not as though that's any real sacrifice to Christians, is it?

Metacrock: Meta =>That's a dehumanizing/"demonizing the other" kind of comment and I'm sure it will serve you well in the great tribulation so you can pretend that the concentration camps don't matter. But its stupid because obvioiusly people are still human and still love life. Being alive is what life is about. Only the atheist straw man version of christianity says that this life doesn't matter, the chruch never said that.

I have to hand it to you, Meta, you've got balls. Complaining about a single comment of mine as demonizing Christians after you spent an entire post demonizing atheists... What can I say, your hypocrisy is astonishing.

In any case, what with your incredible intellect and education, I thought you might be familiar with the notion of "sarcasm." You can look it up if you like. I suppose, more realistically, I should question your sanity for trying to convince anyone of anything based on what would happen if some paranoid delusions of the future were to occur. Heck, if that's valid, should I become master of time and space, and you renounce your Christianity, I'll give you a hojillion dollars. That's a lot of money, and if I'm effectively God, it's pretty obvious Christianity isn't true. Note that you have to act now, however!

Metacrock: 3) eternal life

daemon23: promises, perhaps; empty words, in the end.

Metacrock: Meta =>Bedside the point wheather you think its true or not. The issue is what is he leaving and what he gaining? All we can do is assume the self definitions of the two groups and compare them.

Okay, so you've got a ridiculous method. Should one become a Scientologist simply because they promise you will be able to transcend space and time? Should one become Mormon because they promise you'll become a God? Admittedly, the latter half of my statement was more a personal opinion, but the former half still stands: all it offers is promises.

Metacrock: 4) unconditional forgiveness for all past deeds going back to earliest days (and forgiveness in such a way that all wrong doings are truely forgiven not just imagined to be forgiven).

daemon23: Ah, laying in the guilt already.

Metacrock: Meta =>Ignorance of so amuzing. That is such a strawman argument. We have to compare what the two groups claim for themselves right?

No. I've already rejected this methodology as being a one-way trip to insanity, slavery, or both.

Metacrock: Besides if you knew anything about psychology you would know about the studies of Karl Mininger who showed that the Christain cocept of forgiveness is one of the powerful relazes for mental problems of guilt That's why religioius people have far less incidence of mental illness than do non believers.

Unless, of course, you count religion as mental illness. That's humor again, by the way. So, great, Christianity helps people who have mental illnesses which make them feel guilty. It still doesn't address the fashion in which you presented it, as though this was something he needed.

Metacrock: 5) At least the possibility of divine healing

daemon23: Well, he's also giving up on the possibility of getting boils for believing in YHWH, too, so it really evens out.

Metacrock: Meta =>Medical evidence in Catholic miracle committees is extremely compelling.

Perhaps to you. I find it no more compelling than Miss Cleo's track record.

Metacrock: Divine healing is so well attested that it's even changed the paradigm in medicine to allow spiritual belief in the core curriculum of 150 medical schools including Harvard.

...as are acupuncture, incense, and crystals. Does this mean they actually work, or is it an indicator that people want them to work?

Metacrock: 6) people who don't even know you but are willing to devote at least 4 minutes to concentrated wishes for his best interest should the need arize.

daemon23: Wow. Gosh. A whole four minutes wishing. I'm impressed.

Metacrock: MEta =>you must be very young.

You must not be very good at judging people's age.

Metacrock: Have you ever lived on your own in a major American SMSA?

Being as I don't even know what an SMSA is, I can't say. I have my own car, my own place, I pay all my living expenses.

Metacrock: Then if so you should know that 99% of the people out there wont give you one minute of good wishes.

Perhaps because they're smart enough to know that they do as much good as trying to turn off the sun with their TV remote.

But, wait, obviously you can't be right--more than 1% of the population is Christian! Unless, of course, you mean that even Christians don't really do this, in which case, what was your point again?

Metacrock: 7) people who are willing to come get you anywhere anytime for any need 24-7.

daemon23: Oh yes, I forgot, us mean-ol-atheists, we have lumps of coal where our hearts should be, harrumph, harrumph.

Metacrock: meta => ARe you going to loan him money? Are you going to make sure his family is cared for if he can't get a job (if he needs one) or whatever? Are you going to be the one make sure that his family is ok?

As though this is exclusive domain of the Christian. If I honestly thought he was in trouble and I could help, yes, I would help him.

Metacrock: 8) People who actually like you for youself regardless of corny jokes.

daemon23: *sigh* That's not Christianity, that's called friendship. Atheists can have friends, too, you know.

Metacrock: Meta =>Some do. Some are really up right good people who I care about very much. But most wont give you the time of day unless they can get something.

Your experience of atheists doesn't surprise me, frankly, if you're as obnoxiously abrasive in real life as you are on these forums.

Metacrock: Most Christians have an ethic which forces them to at least try to like you.

I'm tempted to say that you're full of it at this point, but I'll allow you to try to back this up, as it must have been something I missed in my CCD courses growing up. Heck, they stressed all the time that we were to love people and that we didn't have to like them. Where did you get this idea?

Metacrock: In either camp you have to give others a chance, though that much is true for both.

Hey, you said something I can agree with! Amazing.

daemon23: I'm impressed, Meta, not a day goes by and you're trying to reel him back in with guilt and lies. Jesus must be really impressed with your hatred and cruelty.

Metacrock: meta =>What an ass! You have not the slightest concept of how much this cam mean to person to lose his faith.

BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. I have never, ever been so lividly angry at the writings of anyone on this board than this one posting from you, attacking Rainbow Walking's choices in his life. I deconverted a little over a year ago, and sometimes it still hurts, because I've lost a connection to my family, and people I genuinely like and care about. I chose not to live a lie and be honest with others, and I've paid and am still paying for that. Don't ever descend from your holy mount to lecture me on how much deconversion hurts.

Metacrock: It's just a big game to you cause you are a child. You think this is contest, which side has the better social group right? Like in jr. high, no sit with us at lunch, we have jello! Who cares?

I almost put in a snipe here, but I know you're sensitive about your dyslexia, so I won't. In any case, you obviously have no idea who I am or why I'm here.

Metacrock: I know the guy, I know him you don't. You have no right to give me this crap about concern, I doubt that you know what concern is. YOU ARE THE LIAR! I was an atheist, you dont' know jack.

I'm not going to tell you what you do or don't know about things, but you certainly haven't demonstrated a grasp of concern or even humanity in this thread, certainly. You don't launch an attack on atheists, especially one as vitriol-laden as yours, immediately after a friend admits to their personal shift to atheism unless you were trying to hurt him for some reason. That's not concern. You owe him an apology.

[ February 11, 2002: Message edited by: daemon23 ]</p>

jess

Actually, our local group has pot lucks and catered events...

Tomorrow, in honor of Darwin Day, we are having a fish fry...

&lt;hee hee&gt;

Queen of Swords

&lt;imagines fish growing little legs and jumping out of the pan&gt;

jess

I hope not!

I am planning on devouring a few of the little critters... and having my picture taken with an 'uncle'...

Doug

metacrock,

Hey, apparently you value the willingness and ability to loan money to anyone as a sign of support. You also imply that it is only the Christian "family" that will do this. Are you ready, willing and able to distribute money directly to the millions of Christians out there who need it? I'm not talking about giving money to charity. Your post talked of direct lending. Post your address and phone number here for all Christians in need of financial help, not just the ones you know. As another poster said earlier in this thread, "put up or shut up".

As to your laughable suggestion that atheist posters on this website don't understand a loss of faith, surely you are joking. Or, are you delusional? Maybe you just ignore what you don't want to hear. There are hundreds of posters on this site that have rejected theism and struggled with doubts for many heartbreaking years before finally coming to the realization that it's all make believe. Most, if not all of these posters, are happier for it once they've completed the journey. I know I am.

Doug

metacrock,

One more thing. You went off about people's willingness to die for someone. Are you only willing to die for others of the Christian faith, or are you willing to die for the right of everyone to practice, or not practice, religion as they see fit? I am willing to fight and die if necessary to defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, including your right to follow cockeyed religious beliefs. Are you willing to die for my right to not believe in any god?

HelenM

I'm not sure I do know what the cure is, actually.

I'm also not sure what to think about you defending me in places/ways I'm not aware of. It's your choice if you did that; I feel uncomfortable about why you are telling me that you did. To make me like you more? To win points? Don't let your right hand know what your left is doing...?

Anyway I will try not to suspect your motives and of course we are agreed in hoping rw is ok. Maybe something has been posted about him while I have not been online much this week. I haven't had opportunity to check.

love
Helen

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>