Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 07-07-2002, 07:16 AM

Why Lady Shea? Because you say so?

If they both disagree and make contradictory statements about a central issue they cannot be the same being.

Your link is broken.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

luvluv · 07-07-2002, 07:24 AM

I know some will say that Judaism and Chrisitanity disagree on a single point, so therefore there Gods must be different.

But in the case of Judaism and Christianity, it is a disagreement between people.

In the New Testament, Yahweh says of Jesus: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

In the Koran, Allah says that he has no sons.

That one statement contradicts all of Christianity to the point that it would cease to exist as a religion if it were proven true.

They God of Jesus and the god of Mohhamed cannot be the same person. Either Jesus was wrong or Mohhamed was wrong on this issue.

Viti · 07-07-2002, 07:45 AM

luvluv, I am not trying to compare the worship, dogma or various beliefs about the deities nature. If that were the case, then no, they are not the same God...all I am trying to say is that the Jews and Muslims were the same 'people' or tribe who at some point disagreed on the above things (how to worship, laws etc) and split, but worshipped the same God.

This is not because "I say so", I was under the impression it is a well known, historical fact. I put a parenthesis around the link so it didn't work sorry

<a href="http://www.fsmitha.com" target="_blank">http://www.fsmitha.com</a>

luvluv · 07-07-2002, 08:25 AM

This would probably be news to Muslims, who didn't come into existence until around 400 AD I believe. Jews had been around for a lot longer. I also thought I remembered reading that Muhamad had a lot of trouble with the local pantheists and that THAT was the major contender with Islam during Islam's early years. According to the Bible, at least, the people who surronded the Jews were pantheists, not monotheists. True these people eventually went on to be the same people who were converted (often through force) to Islam but I don't know that it is accurate to say that the two were one continuous group of monotheists who split because of theological differences. There is a HUGE time gap between the origins of Judaism and the origins of an Islam anywhere near monotheistic enough to be comparable to the Jewish notion of Yahweh.

Viti · 07-07-2002, 08:57 AM

luvluv....since you are probably a creationist of some sort, this won't make sense to you. The Jews were not always Jews....they descended from pagan nomads. They traveled into the area now known as Israel which was already populated by Canaanites, Phoenicians and Amorites. IOW they did not always have the specific identitiy of "Hebrews" or "Jews". Their basic beliefs and worship were kept within the tribal and clan units. Unlike their new neighbors however, they had no written language and kept their lore through oral tradition only (ever played "telephone"?)

Genesis is incomplete and does not even really begin at the beginning; there are huge gaps in the timeline. Other more literate civilizations were in existance and we can read their documents and compare them to Genesis and the Bible does not hold up well under this scrutiny. There is no unbroken line of Monotheism and names etc in the OT reference the Canaanite deity Ba'al

Quote:

The First Book of Samuel, 9:15, described Saul as the Lord's choice. And in Chapter 10 of the First Book of Samuel, Saul is described as one of Yahweh's prophets. Saul appears to have been close to the Canaanite religion. He named one of his sons Eshbaal (meaning Ba'al exists) and another son he had named Meribaal (meaning Ba'al rewards). Also, one of Saul's Benjamite clansmen was Bealiah (which meant Yahweh is Ba'al).

How can you claim a system of worship when you have no idea how it came about?? My earliest questions regarding Christianity when I was 7 or 8 had to do with historical discrepencies like "How could the world have been destroyed in a flood when there are records from other civilizations dated to the same time period?"

Edited to add:

on a personal note luvluv...your ideas and opinions infuriate me to no end, but you are a worthy debate opponent and always polite and I appreciate you. Anyway, I didn't want you to think I am just a huge bitch...we just seem to be polar opposites on many ideas and I get frustrated.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

luvluv · 07-07-2002, 09:43 AM

I thought that it was stated that Saul named his children after Ba'al because he participated in Ba'al worship, one of the main reasons that he fell out of favor with God and the Hebrew people and was replaced by David. How can you claim to disbelieve in a document and draw your conclusions as to why it must be false from the very document you are disproving. The only way you know that Sauls son's were named after Ba'al is from the Bible.

It is true that the Biblical kings of Isreal occasionally dabbled in idolatry, the Bible records this extensively, but through the prophets there was always a core of monotheism maintained. The idolatry was constantly fought by hardline monotheists (this is recorded very profusely in the historical books like first and second kings; the constant appeal to monotheism is given in the prophets).

This is still irrelavent to whether or not Yahweh and Allah are the same person. Clearly, monotheistic Judaism predates monotheistic Islam by LEAST 400 years. It is probably much greater since monotheism was pretty firmly established by the time of prophets, a couple of hundred years before the birth of Christ. By the time of Christ's birth, most of the Jews were firmly monotheistic. And this was fully 400 years (I believe) before Islam. When Islam was founded, the region of Canaan was still profoundly pantheistic.

What written records pre-date the Book of Job (which is I believe the oldest book in the Bible)?

luvluv · 07-07-2002, 09:46 AM

Quote:

on a personal note luvluv...your ideas and opinions infuriate me to no end, but you are a worthy debate opponent and always polite and I appreciate you. Anyway, I didn't want you to think I am just a huge bitch...we just seem to be polar opposites on many ideas and I get frustrated.

I never thought that. I appreciate you as well. Most of the people on here are very polite and are very helpful. I don't have any bad feelings towards anybody. I think you, Lady Shea, are the cat's pajamas.

Viti · 07-07-2002, 10:20 AM

Mesopotamian tablets are the oldest known written records of more or less daily life and begin around 3300 BC

I am not sure if there is clear evidence of when the Books of the OT were actually written. It appears that early Hebrew scholars began writing down their oral traditions around 1000 BC see <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/65/ol/OldTesta.html" target="_blank">http://www.bartleby.com/65/ol/OldTesta.html</a>

Parts of the OT seem to be historically accurate when compared against other writings, which is to be expected when compiling oral traditions...true accounts are embellished, timelines confused, etc.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

Wizardry · 07-07-2002, 11:18 AM

luvluv

Whether or not you'd like to believe so, Yahweh and Allah are both words for the same entity.

Allah is the Arabic word for "the God", it's the same as using "God" in English rather than the Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Aramaic word for the same. Muslims refer to Allah even when speaking other languages because they believe that the Arabic term is privileged, being the language of God's final revelation.

When Jews, Christians and Muslims talk about God they are all referring to the God of Abraham and of the OT. I don't see how they can be termed "different beings" other than the painfully obvious fact that they are the objects of different religions with different theologies.

Theologically, Jews and Muslims are far closer to each other than either is to Christianity. Jews and Muslims are strict monotheists, not only is there only one God, but God is one. They don't buy the Trinity nonsense. They don't believe that God has any sons, they don't believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Islam and Judaism are traditions of prophets. God communicates to man through men. The difference between Islam and Judaism is truly one of people. Jews follow the line of Issac whereas Muslims follow the line of Ishmael, but still respect the prophecy of Issac's decendents. The primary disagreement between Jews and Muslims is as to whether or not Muhammed was a prophet of God, not (as far as I'm aware) regarding the nature of God.

Christians are the theological odd men out. Jews and Muslims both insist that it is possible for men to adequately follow God's law whereas most Christians deny this and insist that Jesus is necessary to gain acceptance from God. Jews and Muslims have similar attitudes regarding their God, it is the Christians who have completely changed the rules, and on top of that, deny that they have done so. You are worshipping a different God by the same name, it's fairly hypocritical to accuse others of the same.

Oh, and by the way, Muhammed recieved his revelation roundabout 610 C.E., not 400.

Wyrdsmyth · 07-07-2002, 02:07 PM

The trinity always seemed like an attempt to get out of Christianity morphing into polytheism:

"Jesus is the Son of God, but he's not actually a separate entity from God. The Father and the Son are two different persons, but one entity. And the Holy Ghost is a third person but also of the same entity."

Say what?

If it doesn't make any sense to you, don't feel bad -- you're in good company.

Of course, Christianity was unable to completely stave off the temptations of polytheism. Many people have elevated Mary to quasi-deityhood -- I know a lot of people who emphasize Mary over God. The Cult of the Saints flourished in the Middle Ages. These entities get prayed to on a regular basis, and some have their roots in pagan European deities (like St Brigid).

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07-07-2002, 07:16 AM	#81
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Why Lady Shea? Because you say so? If they both disagree and make contradictory statements about a central issue they cannot be the same being. Your link is broken. [ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

07-07-2002, 07:24 AM	#82
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I know some will say that Judaism and Chrisitanity disagree on a single point, so therefore there Gods must be different. But in the case of Judaism and Christianity, it is a disagreement between people. In the New Testament, Yahweh says of Jesus: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." In the Koran, Allah says that he has no sons. That one statement contradicts all of Christianity to the point that it would cease to exist as a religion if it were proven true. They God of Jesus and the god of Mohhamed cannot be the same person. Either Jesus was wrong or Mohhamed was wrong on this issue.

07-07-2002, 07:45 AM	#83
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	luvluv, I am not trying to compare the worship, dogma or various beliefs about the deities nature. If that were the case, then no, they are not the same God...all I am trying to say is that the Jews and Muslims were the same 'people' or tribe who at some point disagreed on the above things (how to worship, laws etc) and split, but worshipped the same God. This is not because "I say so", I was under the impression it is a well known, historical fact. I put a parenthesis around the link so it didn't work sorry <a href="http://www.fsmitha.com" target="_blank">http://www.fsmitha.com</a>

07-07-2002, 08:25 AM	#84
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	This would probably be news to Muslims, who didn't come into existence until around 400 AD I believe. Jews had been around for a lot longer. I also thought I remembered reading that Muhamad had a lot of trouble with the local pantheists and that THAT was the major contender with Islam during Islam's early years. According to the Bible, at least, the people who surronded the Jews were pantheists, not monotheists. True these people eventually went on to be the same people who were converted (often through force) to Islam but I don't know that it is accurate to say that the two were one continuous group of monotheists who split because of theological differences. There is a HUGE time gap between the origins of Judaism and the origins of an Islam anywhere near monotheistic enough to be comparable to the Jewish notion of Yahweh.

07-07-2002, 09:43 AM	#86
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I thought that it was stated that Saul named his children after Ba'al because he participated in Ba'al worship, one of the main reasons that he fell out of favor with God and the Hebrew people and was replaced by David. How can you claim to disbelieve in a document and draw your conclusions as to why it must be false from the very document you are disproving. The only way you know that Sauls son's were named after Ba'al is from the Bible. It is true that the Biblical kings of Isreal occasionally dabbled in idolatry, the Bible records this extensively, but through the prophets there was always a core of monotheism maintained. The idolatry was constantly fought by hardline monotheists (this is recorded very profusely in the historical books like first and second kings; the constant appeal to monotheism is given in the prophets). This is still irrelavent to whether or not Yahweh and Allah are the same person. Clearly, monotheistic Judaism predates monotheistic Islam by LEAST 400 years. It is probably much greater since monotheism was pretty firmly established by the time of prophets, a couple of hundred years before the birth of Christ. By the time of Christ's birth, most of the Jews were firmly monotheistic. And this was fully 400 years (I believe) before Islam. When Islam was founded, the region of Canaan was still profoundly pantheistic. What written records pre-date the Book of Job (which is I believe the oldest book in the Bible)?

07-07-2002, 10:20 AM	#88
Viti Contributor Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Down South Posts: 12,879	Mesopotamian tablets are the oldest known written records of more or less daily life and begin around 3300 BC I am not sure if there is clear evidence of when the Books of the OT were actually written. It appears that early Hebrew scholars began writing down their oral traditions around 1000 BC see <a href="http://www.bartleby.com/65/ol/OldTesta.html" target="_blank">http://www.bartleby.com/65/ol/OldTesta.html</a> Parts of the OT seem to be historically accurate when compared against other writings, which is to be expected when compiling oral traditions...true accounts are embellished, timelines confused, etc. [ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: LadyShea ]</p>

07-07-2002, 11:18 AM	#89
Wizardry Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 363	luvluv Whether or not you'd like to believe so, Yahweh and Allah are both words for the same entity. Allah is the Arabic word for "the God", it's the same as using "God" in English rather than the Hebrew, Greek, Latin or Aramaic word for the same. Muslims refer to Allah even when speaking other languages because they believe that the Arabic term is privileged, being the language of God's final revelation. When Jews, Christians and Muslims talk about God they are all referring to the God of Abraham and of the OT. I don't see how they can be termed "different beings" other than the painfully obvious fact that they are the objects of different religions with different theologies. Theologically, Jews and Muslims are far closer to each other than either is to Christianity. Jews and Muslims are strict monotheists, not only is there only one God, but God is one. They don't buy the Trinity nonsense. They don't believe that God has any sons, they don't believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Islam and Judaism are traditions of prophets. God communicates to man through men. The difference between Islam and Judaism is truly one of people. Jews follow the line of Issac whereas Muslims follow the line of Ishmael, but still respect the prophecy of Issac's decendents. The primary disagreement between Jews and Muslims is as to whether or not Muhammed was a prophet of God, not (as far as I'm aware) regarding the nature of God. Christians are the theological odd men out. Jews and Muslims both insist that it is possible for men to adequately follow God's law whereas most Christians deny this and insist that Jesus is necessary to gain acceptance from God. Jews and Muslims have similar attitudes regarding their God, it is the Christians who have completely changed the rules, and on top of that, deny that they have done so. You are worshipping a different God by the same name, it's fairly hypocritical to accuse others of the same. Oh, and by the way, Muhammed recieved his revelation roundabout 610 C.E., not 400.

07-07-2002, 02:07 PM	#90
Wyrdsmyth Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Sarver, PA, USA Posts: 920	The trinity always seemed like an attempt to get out of Christianity morphing into polytheism: "Jesus is the Son of God, but he's not actually a separate entity from God. The Father and the Son are two different persons, but one entity. And the Holy Ghost is a third person but also of the same entity." Say what? If it doesn't make any sense to you, don't feel bad -- you're in good company. Of course, Christianity was unable to completely stave off the temptations of polytheism. Many people have elevated Mary to quasi-deityhood -- I know a lot of people who emphasize Mary over God. The Cult of the Saints flourished in the Middle Ages. These entities get prayed to on a regular basis, and some have their roots in pagan European deities (like St Brigid).

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