Iluvatar

I don't think there's anything wrong with the left/right spectrum, but this Political Compass thing is way better.

I did the test and it seems I'm almost as far to the libertarian left as possible. Good test. Very accurate.

Economic Left/Right: -9.25
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -8.46

RED DAVE

From Misso:

No, it is the other way around.

1) Liberals are scarcely leftists anymore. If you can call Bill Clinton a liberal (politically, not personally), then the term has lost its meaning. The term "neoloiberal" actually designates a fairly conservative philosophy, e.g. destruction of the welfare state.

2) Conservatives support the triumph of the military (as we are now seeing), government restriction of civil liberties (as we are now seeing), racism, and the attack on working people, the middle classes and the poor (and that's when they're being nice).

3) The market is the final logic of statism and vice versa. THE STATE HAS NEVER BEEN MORE POWERFUL AND REPRESSIVE THAN UNDER THE PRESENT CONSERVATIVE REGIME.

3) Leftists, real leftists, oppose militarism, racism, and the capitalist state, in general. The only parts of the state that convervatives oppose are those that stand in the way of untrammeled capitalist aggression.

4) Libertarianism is a disguised form of conservatism.

RED DAVE

meritocrat

How can that be when both ideologies have differing roots?

Please give a detailed analysis of how conservatism and libertarianism are linked.

RED DAVE

From Meritocrat:

1) Both libertarianism and conservatism are capitalist ideologies. (That's actually about 80% of the argument.)

2) Both libertarianism and conservatism believe that all social problems, if there are any, such as racism, war and exploitation (if they believe in that) can be solved by "the market."

3) Both libertarianism and conservatism support the fantasy that the captitalist state is, somehow, separate from capitalism itself and is, somehow, an excresence.

4) Both libertarianism and conservatism support the military, usually unconditionally, as an exception to "3" above.

5) Both libertarianism and conservatism believe that the right of property is, essentially, absolute and cannot be abrogated. This includes a virtually absolute right of property owners (read, "capitalists") to dominate any business environment they own and grant few or no rights to employees.

6) Both libertarianism and conservatism show little or no respect for the environment, despite protests to the contrary. In any contest between the environment and profits, profits will prevail.

7) Neither libertariansim nor conservatism have any use for democracy.

8) Both libertarianism and conservatism are racist, classist and sexist to the core, in that they, actively or passively, support capitalism, which is the modern day source of these social blights.

9) Both libertarianism and conservatism show no real concern for human life or dignity, in that they do not support universal health care as a decent right for all.

10) Both libertarianism and conservatism have no real use for culture, in that given a conflict between culture and the market, the market shall prevail. The exception to this is culture as a commodity.

11) Both libertarianism and conservatism believe that all values are subordinate to, and derivative from, the values of capitalism and virtually any other value can and will be sacrificed to this god.

This is just off the top of my head. A really detailed study would require a book.

RED DAVE

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by RED DAVE
1) Both libertarianism and conservatism are capitalist ideologies. (That's actually about 80% of the argument.)

Libertarianism and conservatism are similar in *ECONOMIC* outlook.

2) Both libertarianism and conservatism believe that all social problems, if there are any, such as racism, war and exploitation (if they believe in that) can be solved by "the market."

No. Most of them can be, though.

4) Both libertarianism and conservatism support the military, usually unconditionally, as an exception to "3" above.

Disagree.

6) Both libertarianism and conservatism show little or no respect for the environment, despite protests to the contrary. In any contest between the environment and profits, profits will prevail.

No. Libertarians simply feel that the environment can be better handled through the market.

8) Both libertarianism and conservatism are racist, classist and sexist to the core, in that they, actively or passively, support capitalism, which is the modern day source of these social blights.

Neither are. They just don't actively oppose it.

9) Both libertarianism and conservatism show no real concern for human life or dignity, in that they do not support universal health care as a decent right for all.

It can't be a right. Something which someone must actively provide can not be a right.
You can argue that a government should provide something to it's citizens but that's different than a right.

10) Both libertarianism and conservatism have no real use for culture, in that given a conflict between culture and the market, the market shall prevail. The exception to this is culture as a commodity.

No. They simply have a different definition of culture.

RED DAVE

From Loren Pechtel: (Numbered statements are from a previous posting of mine identifying libertarianism and conservatism as being, essentialy, the same.)

So you agree with me.
Again, you agree with me.
You'll have to do more than assert your disagreement. Prior to the current war, whose insanity, imperialism and lies were so blatantly obvious, I never saw a single critique of the military by libertarians or conservatives on this board or elsewhere.
You are trapping yourself in your own habitual rhetoric. Remember, this debate is about the identity of libertarianism and conservatism, not the truth or falsehood of libertarianism. Again, you have agreed with me.
Again, you agree that your position is, essentially, identical to that of a conservative.
That's libertarian philosophy not disagreement. You have accepted the identity of your position and that of the conservatives.
Whatever that "different definition of culture" is, you have not distinguished yourself from a conservative.

I believe my point has been made. The own difference you asserted, between a libertarian and a conservative, was over the military, which I deny. Be that as it may, on every other point you came up with no argument to make the distinction.

I think it is clear that despite potestations and rhetoric, libertarianism is a disguised form of conservatism.

RED DAVE

emphryio

I have certainly noticed this. They get very, very quiet all of the sudden don't they?

I often see a thing I like to think of as the "Loren Wave" as he replies to 4, 5, 6 topics in a row

But start a topic with links like the following:
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Di...Dictators.html
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
Which are directly the result of the desire for privatization, "economic freedom", etc.

And Loren and like minded individuals disappear.

Almost makes me wonder.....

As often as such links have been posted, they know about these things. But..... they simply pretend they've never happened nor continue to happen.

Loren Pechtel

Originally posted by RED DAVE
From Loren Pechtel: (Numbered statements are from a previous posting of mine identifying libertarianism and conservatism as being, essentialy, the same.)


So you agree with me.

I said they pretty much agree on ECONOMICS. They are radically different when it comes to personal actions.

Again, you agree with me.


Most <> All. The market is like evolution: Unable to cross a chasm. The market will not wipe out things like slavery because that requires a jump. In time it will wipe out things like discrimination as that can be done gradually.

You'll have to do more than assert your disagreement. Prior to the current war, whose insanity, imperialism and lies were so blatantly obvious, I never saw a single critique of the military by libertarians or conservatives on this board or elsewhere.

Then you didn't look hard enough.

You are trapping yourself in your own habitual rhetoric. Remember, this debate is about the identity of libertarianism and conservatism, not the truth or falsehood of libertarianism. Again, you have agreed with me.

I merely presented the disagreement between the two positions. I do agree that the conservatives don't care much for the environment.

Again, you agree that your position is, essentially, identical to that of a conservative.

I'm objecting to the whole concept of universal health care (or anything else which actually must be provided) as a right.
I do agree that neither group favors it.

That's libertarian philosophy not disagreement. You have accepted the identity of your position and that of the conservatives.

Whatever that "different definition of culture" is, you have not distinguished yourself from a conservative.

I'm not saying they don't like culture. I'm saying that what they like isn't neccessary what you define as "culture".

meritocrat

Libertarianism and conservatism possess different roots and backgrounds.

The only possible similiarity between the two is that both ideologies have a tradition of economic freedom.

Loren Pechtel

That's what he's focusing on.