Vanderzyden

Reliance upon critiques provides only a small part of the picture. I would insist that you are not justified in making the bold claim that "his assumptions are suspect" unless you have read his material for yourself.

Rohl actually has two excellent books, "Pharoahs and Kings" (A Test of Time), and "Legend". He is working on a third.

As I indicated, the "accepted" position is accepted by classical egyptologists. It would seem that many are being persuaded by Rohl's work.

Vanderzyden

Vanderzyden

Yes, I intend to address your questions...soon. Can't do it now, though. I have a meeting to attend.

Vanderzyden

Hayden

Sweet as.

HR

davidH

Howdy Kosh,

How come you left the last post that we had been talking on? - The one about the Israeli exodus...

There were some interesting points raised there.....especially those about the Egyptians deliberately altering their own history inorder to cover up embarassing situations that happened.

Again lets consider the logic here;

The "Shepherd Kings" (incorrect translation apparently) are kicked off the throne, there are many "Apiru" present in Egypt (land of Goshen)then apparently all exit Egypt in a mass Exodus.

Would not the new King have taken a lot of these here for slaves? - Logic says that he would have.
Why? Because it was cheap labour.
Even I would do that there.

Hence the names in that document etc.


The link to the other topic is

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=45&t=000742&p=1" target="_blank">link to topic</a>

It'll make some interesting reading as you see how we worked through a lot of this stuff...unfortunately it was never finished

[ October 01, 2002: Message edited by: davidH ]</p>

gsx1138

There still seems to be a case of: point A goes to point B thus point X must be true with nothing in between. I bet there were Egyptian slaves in other areas. I don't think it should be surprising that there were Hebrew slaves in Egypt as they were in the general area to begin with. I just question the craftsmanship on the temples and pyramids being attributed to slaves. Not only is there no record of a mass Exodus or Moses by Egypt there is no records from any of the outlying kingdoms as well. It seems to me someone would notice a buttload of people suddenly showing up in their region even if they were spread thin. Just my 2 cents.

Marduk

Most of this depends quite heavily on dates. When was the Exodus to have happened? 1450 BCE (450 years before Solomon?) Part of Egypt was once ruled by ‘Asiatics’ Hyksos, the Egyptians through them out, or fought them to a standstill and they left around this time. This was the beginning of Egypt’s golden Age. But weren’t these ‘slaves’ supposed to have built the City of Ramses, Pi Ramses? Around 1200 BCE. Something doesn’t add up. Ramses II was too strong a Pharoah for this to have happened under him and much is know about his period. It is also important to note when Egypt began the practice of using this typr of Slavery, they didn't always, the Old Kingdom for example.
Anyway as someone once said, “Just because there are twisters, a state called Kansas and little girls with dogs, doesn’t prove that there are Munchkins”

Kosh

Because your theory is full of shit, and you weren't listening no matter how many people told you so.

And you were the one that left. For over a month.

mfaber

Vander, your so-called evidence seems to turn on a very generous meaning of the Egyptian word for "Asiatic" and ONE record of 95 slaves, 8 or 9 of which have "Biblical" names. It was the whole NATION of Israel that was supposed enslaved and according to the Bible at the time of "Moses" there were 600,000 men alone (Bible doesn't mention women, children, and the elderly)! A conservative estimate of the number of PEOPLE (I keep forgetting that the Bible considers women and children as property, not worthy of mention!) would be 2 million+!!!.

I think that the Egyptians, a very erudite people who seemed to be almost as anal as the Romans when it came to records-keeping, would have noticed! You are going to have to do better than this usual bit of Christian tap-dancing to make a case for Mose or the Exodus.....

Until you find some, as far as I am concerned, Moses never existed, the Jews were never slaves of the Egyptians, Exodus didn't happen.....

First of all the story of Moses looks like the story of King Sargon
The Pentatueuch:not Wholly Moses/Legend of Sargon
<a href="http://www.strbrasil.com.br/English/Atheos/pentateuch.htm" target="_blank">http://www.strbrasil.com.br/English/Atheos/pentateuch.htm</a>

The Story of Exodus, Just Another Christian Bullwinkle's Fractured Fairy Tale?

First of all, the Bible gives contradictory dates for Exodus. Calculating the date from Solomons reign and his construction of the Temple in I Kings gives a date for Exodus of 1447 BCE. However, if one uses the chronology of Judges we have a period of 610-650 years between the Exodus (1577 - 1617 BCE) and the building of the temple. This obviously does not square with the 480 years(Exodus 1447 BCE) given in I Kings 6:1.

The Biblical "History" Contradicts the Archeological Record (just a few of the many contradictions that should make one doubt the veracity of the Exodus story) NOTE--This is ONLY a small sample!!

1) Exodus. 1:11 specifically mentions the Israelites being used as slave labor to build the city of Raamses. But, the first Pharaoh named Raamses came to the throne in 1320 BCE. Egyptian records state Raamses II, who ruled 1279-1213 BCE built the city of Raamses. How is this possible when the Isrealites were supposed to have left at least 170 years beforehand (using the 1447 BCE Exodus date, the most commonly accepted one)?

2) The Exodus writer gives no name of any Pharaoh at the alleged time of Joseph or Moses. The Exodus author’s avoidance of king/pharaoh names suggests the objective is something less then an accounting of datable, historical fact. A very strange omission....

3) There is absolutely NO mention of Joseph, the 7-year famine, the plagues, the Israelites, or the drowning of Pharoah's (which one?) army in any Egyptian records covering the time that they were alleged to have been there. I don't think the Egyptians would have missed catatrophes like the Nile turning to blood, burning hail, the death of the first born, the parting of the Red Sea, the drowning of Pharoah's (whose?) army, etc.

4) A stone slab, the Merneptah stele dated 1207 BCE,is the FIRST mention of "Israel" found in Egypt. It outlines Raamses II’ son, Pharaoh Merneptah’s campaign into Canaan in which a people named "Israel" lost big time. Apart from this single military encounter which in itself contradicts the Wilderness account, it seems unbelievable that 2,000,000+ Israelites could be unknown to a people who seemed to have taken "note" (literally and figuratively) of all circumstances in their sphere of influence.

5) The Exodus writer is ignorant of the Egyptian forts in northern Sinai or the Egyptian strongholds in Canaan, especially in the 15th to 13th century BCE when Egypt became the dominant power of Middle East. The Israelites would have had to pass by at least one of these forts, yet there is no mention of such a thing by the Egyptians. (I really think it would be hard to miss 2 million people!).

6) Exodus alleges that there were upwards of 2,000,000 people wandering in the "wilderness" for 40 years. However, despite decades decades of searching the sites listed in the Bible, NOT one single, solitary, artifact has turned up! Examples:

• a)Repeated surveys at Kadesh-Barnea where Israel spent 38 of its 40 years have not provided the slightest evidence of an Israelite encampment.
• b)Two decades of intensive excavations at Tel Arad (Numbers 21:1-3) where Israel allegedly did battle with King Arad has provided no Late Bronze Age (1550-1150 BCE....Exodus date =1447 BCE) remains.
• c) Tel Hesbon, the site of Hesbon (Numbers 21:21-35) where Israel allegedly did battle with the king of the Amorites provides no Bronze Age remains.

Christians try to explain away this complete and total absence of archeological data by saying that it isn't realistic to expect that archaeologists could find 3,500 year old artifacts. However, this excuse doesn't wash when "satellite imagery and ground-penetrating radar have found the most meager remains of hunter-gather societies and pastoral nomads all over the world"!!!

Archaeology and history from:
1) Oxford Encyclopedia of Archaeology of the Near East
2) I. Finklestein, PhD & N. Silberman, PhD, The Bible Unearthed

BTW, before you mention Jericho... Here is what the Christian, Dennis Bratcher from The Christian Research Institute has to say about that:
VERDICT: Mose, Exodus? JUST another fairy tale!

[ October 02, 2002: Message edited by: mfaber ]</p>

Liquidrage

Good post mfaber.

And the Tallahassee count is now 5 ii members.

Jayhawker Soule

Very. It also prompted me to dredge up some earlier references. As has been noted repeatedly in various BC&A threads, a handful of Apiru servants does not an Exodus make. We read, for example: The following from Egypt, Cannan, and Israel in Ancient Times by Donald B. Redford:
For example: But the problem goes beyond an absence of information ...