Freethought & Rationalism Archive

VivaHedone · 03-03-2003, 11:52 AM

Quote:

I argue against your religion because I want to obliterate all of your consequences, every last one of them. I want your influence out of our political system. I want your influence out of our educational system. I want your mythology kept completely apart from science. I want your bloody morals discredited and erased from the face of the globe. I want you to have to earn your human worth instead of merely pretending in order to achieve "holier than thou" standing among your peers. I want you to respect others and contribute to humanity instead of gleefully threatening that we will fry in Hell for not agreeing with you, who think you know better, because you think ignorance and myth, and fact and science, are equals.

Brilliant.

Jamie_L · 03-03-2003, 11:58 AM

What happened to Apologetix? Now that his ruse has gotten responses that he can attack back at his site, he doesn't feel like debating anymore?

It just seems kind of disingenuous to post on a site about debating the existence of God when you have no intention to debate the existence of God - and then to criticise people for trying to debate with you about the existence of God.

I tried to be nice, I really did. But I guess one man's "nice" is another man's "intellectually mocking".

Jamie

diana · 03-03-2003, 12:23 PM

Quote:

It just seems kind of disingenuous to post on a site about debating the existence of God when you have no intention to debate the existence of God - and then to criticise people for trying to debate with you about the existence of God.

Amen, Brother Jamie.

I keep checking back at the original site to see if anyone's carrying on the conversation anywhere, but it seems to have ceased.

It seems rather underhanded to me to start a thread over there to prove how rude atheists are, come over here to...well, do exactly as you outlined above..then when your tactics are shown for the ruse they are, disappear into the ether. This is a representative of Xst?

Shameful.

d

Aerik Von · 03-03-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
He did not die for us. He took a three day nap. I hardly call that dying!

Actually, it appears to have been somewhat less than forty hours (late Friday afternoon until somewhere around dawn Sunday).

Heh, I slept for 43 hours straight once, does that make me a messiah?

Seriously though...if dying for a short time would save the human race I think only the most selfish man wouldn't agree.

OH THE DRAMA!

:boohoo:

Magus55 · 03-03-2003, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AmericanHeretic
I'll ignore the easily refuted Pascal's Wager aspect of this and go for the obvious consequential pragmatics.

The consequence for the individual believer, in nothing. When you die you rot. Your beliefs rot with you, unless you've passed them off or handed them down.

The consequence then, for the rest of us, of your religion's ignorance and being "not intellectually studied up" is the following:

1) Myth without factual support is claimed to be as valid as science with it's full body of factual support. Education becomes meaningless.

2) Absolute morality as derived from God and the Bible is claimed to be as valid as reasoned ethics. Philosophy and ethical reasoning become meaningless.

I argue against your religion because I want to obliterate all of your consequences, every last one of them. I want your influence out of our political system. I want your influence out of our educational system. I want your mythology kept completely apart from science. I want your bloody morals discredited and erased from the face of the globe. I want you to have to earn your human worth instead of merely pretending in order to achieve "holier than thou" standing among your peers. I want you to respect others and contribute to humanity instead of gleefully threatening that we will fry in Hell for not agreeing with you, who think you know better, because you think ignorance and myth, and fact and science, are equals.

Lol, hope you don't put too much energy into those ambitions. You will NEVER get rid of Christianity. Christianity will exist till the end of the world.

Mageth · 03-03-2003, 01:06 PM

Christianity will exist till the end of the world.

And the Titanic was an unsinkable ship.

I agree that Xianity is likely to be with us for the foreseeable future; after all, there are @2 billion Xians in the world today. I believe it's safe to say that a majority of those will be successful in passing the Xianity memes on to their offspring.

But that doesn't mean that, in the coming centuries, Xianity will not have faded away like the Greco-Roman religions, or at a minimum evolved into something you would no longer recognize.

Magus55 · 03-03-2003, 01:21 PM

The Greco-Roman gods never had the influence that Christianity does. Hence why almost nobody believes in them these days.

doodad · 03-03-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Apologetix
Define facts. Do you mean facts as in scientific? Or facts as in burden of proof? If scientific then absolutely nothing, including Athiesm, could be proven. If Burden of Proof, then define burden of proof and exactly what quantity and qulaity of proof would needed to be applied. That too is an interpretive means of proving or disproving God. The reason I presented no "facts" is because the term facts can be interpreted many different ways. Even the facts themselves can be interpreted. Any good Athiest should know that when debating on philosophical issues, facts are honestly irrelavent.

This is a misunderstanding of the Christian faith. The misunderstanding has occured in that you believe God created Jesus. While this may be true for the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, for those who follow Biblical Christianity it is believed that Jesus Himself was actually God. Therefore it is believed that God died for His creation.

Again, I think it takes quite a case to prove that they aren't true. To my knowledge I haven't been able to find any significant errors in both the theology and historical accuracy of the Bible. Of course the theology cannot be "proven" wrong or right because it is founded upon a level in which proof has no meaning. However the history is very viable in that if the history is wrong, then the theology really cannot carry much weight. But like I said, I do not know of any contradictions to the Bible's history. The main ones that I know if that it cannot be absolutely proven that David was the Kings and such events like that. But I cannot say I have found evidence that contradicts the Bible.

There a lot of Christians, including me, that do not think Jesus is God. That is a misconstrual of the Holy Trinity relationship that fundamentalist believers often develop. It comes from too narrow of an interpretation of the meaning of scripture.

Thomas Metcalf · 03-03-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Clutch

Quote:

Well, that's a poor criticism. Presumably an omnimax god's inability to learn is not a matter of his non-omnipotence, but a matter of his omniscience. For that matter, he also can't forget anything. Or sin. Or fall down the stairs, or any number of things that you can do. These hardly amount to imperfections, though.

No one was asserting that they amount to imperfections. They amount to limitations on power, however, and these are inconsistent with God's omnipotence. Perhaps (and in fact this looks rather likely) a maximally great being is not maximally powerful.

doodad · 03-03-2003, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Apologetix
One who has simply studied their faith and has based their faith upon what they have learned from studying and not from action. A hardened athiest is one who is not an athiest because they hate Christians, but they are an athiest because they desire to learn.

There is no such thing as a "good athiest". Athiest are humans, and humans are not good by nature. Just like there is no such thing as a "good Christian".

Look at what I said in context. When I said that I was speaking about the historical applications of the Bible.

You seem to have a pathological view of humanity. There are those who believe that the human being has two tendencies, one being the tendency to do good things and the other being a tendency to do bad things. Whether a given person is good or bad hangs in the balance of these two tendencies.

Bible thumpers think all humans are inherently all bad. How else could they justify their self righteousness? It's like religion was a solution looking for a problem so God went out and made us all bad so his favorite son would have something to justify his existence.

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03-03-2003, 11:58 AM	#72
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	What happened to Apologetix? Now that his ruse has gotten responses that he can attack back at his site, he doesn't feel like debating anymore? It just seems kind of disingenuous to post on a site about debating the existence of God when you have no intention to debate the existence of God - and then to criticise people for trying to debate with you about the existence of God. I tried to be nice, I really did. But I guess one man's "nice" is another man's "intellectually mocking". Jamie

03-03-2003, 01:06 PM	#76
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Christianity will exist till the end of the world. And the Titanic was an unsinkable ship. I agree that Xianity is likely to be with us for the foreseeable future; after all, there are @2 billion Xians in the world today. I believe it's safe to say that a majority of those will be successful in passing the Xianity memes on to their offspring. But that doesn't mean that, in the coming centuries, Xianity will not have faded away like the Greco-Roman religions, or at a minimum evolved into something you would no longer recognize.

03-03-2003, 01:21 PM	#77
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	The Greco-Roman gods never had the influence that Christianity does. Hence why almost nobody believes in them these days.

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