St. Robert

Quote from Victorialis:

"True hope? That sounds suspiciously like certainty. Life does not contain this. Therein lies the challenge of faith, no?"

I would say that a life lived by faith in Christ does contain certainty. The certainty does not come from me and my saying so. It comes from God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

"I maintain that there is nothing in life that can be postponed pending our acquisition of true hope. The decisions to be made and the responsibilities to be met will not wait for it. We have to do the best we can today."

You don't have to wait to have true hope and certainty. It is available to you today by faith in Jesus. Hope for man does not truly exist outside an open relationship with Jesus the Christ.

A focus on being right is self-serving. A focus on loving people and sharing the truth or good news about Jesus is God-serving. The difference is in my motivation. Who am I being right for? God? Right is what God is. If I want to win a debate about religion and not love people like Jesus, I'm not pleasing God.

Good to have you back, Victorialis. Hope you had a great time on holiday.

[ June 20, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

perpetua

AdamWho:
Nice to meet you. Forgive me, I do not know much about Buddism. Truth be told,I know nothing. However, I stongly believe any similarities are inconsequential. The crux of the issue is not that they are alike in so many aspects, but rather, which one offers a real release from earthly suffering and eternal Joy? They cannot both be true.

St. Robert

The gates of heaven have been flung wide open to anyone who choses to follow Jesus into eternal glory. It is only by his grace that salvation is received.

Is there anything in Buddhism that can be compared to Christ's call to grace?

[ June 21, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

AdamWho

perpetua:
All religions are very similar because they were all created by humans who all operate psychologically the same way. Whether or not you agree with it, it is a fact that Christianity has borrowed considerably from eastern religions and indiginous religions.

Did you make this statement because you have thought through the issues clearly or because you are emotionally invested in Christianity?

Buddhism actually addresses earthly suffering and gives the person direction on how to reduce their (physical and psychological) suffering, but it is the follower’s responsibility to do the real work. Christianity, on the other hand works to relive suffering by handing it off to god, thereby postponing or bandaging over the real psychological (not to mention physical) reasons for suffering.
Buddhism makes no claims to "eternal joy". You however are assuming "eternal traits" exist outside of physical bodies such as joy, love, suffering (etcetera) - an assumption taken on faith, not proven.

BTW, I find that writing the posts in word and then pasting them in helps a lot with spelling errors, some friendly advice from a misspeller.

St. Robert:
Your rant is a non-sequitur, irrelevant to the topic and kind of silly. We all know about Christianity, maybe too much. Have you ever thought what "eternal glory" might consist of?
Yes, the Four Noble Truths, however, it is not the free ticket you crave.

[ June 24, 2002: Message edited by: AdamWho ]</p>

Tinman

St. Robert,

I'm struck by a fundamental difference between the Christian and Buddhist perspectives on self. For the Christian, it seems that the surender of self to Christ is done for a "selfish" motive; eternal existence as a separate entity, distinguishable from God, yet "with" Him. For the Buddhist, it seems quite different. Have I missed something or is this correct?

Tinman

AdamWho

Tinman
I am also amazed by this in Christians. It is obviously clinging (read: desire) to the self, it is deeply materialistic, and "spiritually" immature. Christianity stresses submission to a parent-like (father) figure rather than personal responsibility which Buddhism stresses.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: AdamWho ]</p>

Tinman

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AdamWho:

I am also amazed by this in Christians. It is obviously clinging (read: desire) to the self, it is deeply materialistic, and "spiritually" immature. Christianity stresses submission to a parent-like (father) figure rather than personal responsibility which Buddhism stresses.[QUOTE]

The eternal perpetuation of the self in Judeo/Christian religion is a fairly "recent" addition. The gospels speak of Jesus arguing with the Saddhucees and Pharisees. The Saddhucees, Josephus tells us, did not believe in an afterlife and yet were a major religious influence in that day. Probably most christian scholars would hold that before the Jews were taken into Bablonian exile, there were no strongly held views by the priests on the afterlife or the continued existence of the self. The old tesament bears little evidence of any clear understanding of an afterlife and in several instances portrays the afterlife as one of uncertainty and fear. The reward of the righteous by God was given in this life or not at all.

New testament jews were at the cusp of a theological transition which was continued by the Christians. The promise of Christian salvation, is after all, the promise of eternal life. This inducement (the carrot) is always followed by the stick (torment after death, perhaps eternal or perhaps not depending on one's theology of hell).

But I wonder if a higher Christian maturity could exist which does not depend on the reward of an afterlife. Such a Christian would view obedience to God as it's own reward for this life and would not do so for the "selfish" (this is not used prejudicially) reward of eternal life. Do such Christians exist? If they do, would they have more in common with the Buddhist than their salvation motivated Christian counterparts? As far as I know, no Christian sect has discarded a belief in eternal life. I suppose most would ask, "whats the point"?

Is the Buddhist not being selfish in his belief in reincarnation? Or is Karma just the equivalent of the afterlife stick" (purgatory to RC Christians) and a monks invention to get the common folk to do the right thing? Could the denial of self exist without the hope of reincarnation and Nirvana?

Tinman

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tinman ]

[ June 26, 2002: Message edited by: Tinman ]</p>

AdamWho

Tinman
My take on Buddhism emphasizes personal responsibility (for desire -&gt; suffering link) along with the denial of supernatural causality. Many people seem to look for the easiest path no matter what religion they follow. You will for instance find Buddhists worshiping statues just like Christians do.

St. Robert

Do you think it was easy for Jesus to be crucified by the people he loves?

Following Jesus requires humility to submit to God's authority, courage to trust God will, and strength to crucify the flesh and walk in the spirit.

If anyone thinks that the Christian life is easy, that person must not be a Christian or know anything about Jesus.

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

[ June 27, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

AdamWho

St. Robert:
Three responses:
1. Imaginary people don't feel pain
2. God = Jesus = Holy Spirit; Jesus suffered for himself so he could convince himself to save creatures from his own wrath.
3. He didn't suffer anymore than anyone else being crucified

Again with the wild assumptions:
1. we don't know anything about Christianity
2. we couldn't have been real Christians if we now deny it.
3. all our knowledge of Christianity is just book knowledge not known by the heart.

I will assume for a moment that you are ardently following Jesus, my question then is:
To what end?
For what purpose?
Are you doing it because you are told to?
Because you wish for a reward?
Because it is required?

If you look at it, I think that you will find desire / clinging wrapped up in your answers. Buddhism seeks to extinguish even the desire for enlightenment, salvation, and end to suffering.
Christianity ends where Buddhism just begins.