Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 09:27 AM

danielius,

Quote:

These are among my dogmas. I'd like to hear some of yours.

I have no dogma. Moreover, I would rather die than adhere to any dogma of any kind whatsoever.

Oh, and as to my beliefs: I hold no beliefs whatsoever regarding the existence or nonexistence of any god of any kind.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Jinto · 06-01-2003, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tenspace
Thanks for making me laugh so hard that iced tea shot out of my nose and all over the screen. But it's okay now, because I am forgiven. And so are you, if you clicked on the button. heheh

Tenspace

I do what I can.

danielius · 06-01-2003, 04:48 PM

Gosh, thanks to everyone for their input. I'll try to answer as many points raised as I can.

The primary point for me is reality. To atheists, Christianity lets down the team of Mankind, because it seeks to find solace in dreams and fairytales. To a Christian, however, it is not dreams and fairytales that are unreal, but this fragile, half-hearted world. Christians don't seek less reality, but more.

Many 'freethinkers' do doubt there even is a reality, that is to say, that reality is real. For example, when a child looks out of a window onto their lawn and admires the green grass, the freethinker says to the child, 'You know don't you, that there really isn't any grass out there at all. It's just chemicals whirling around in your brain'. But the thinker is making brain chemistry real - his 'ground of reality', by which the relative reality or unreality of everything else is determined.

And this is part of the reason I wanted to know if atheists found the Bible too realistic or too unrealistic. Haven't they ever thought, perhaps it isn't the Bible's reality that's lacking, but this world's?

And I'm tickled to see how many atheists state their dogma that they have no dogmas.

The Old Testament does indeed speak of stoning people to death. Unfortunately it did happen in parts of the world, and I think still does in one or two places. But it was Christ who gave the oft-quoted line: 'Let he without sin cast the first stone.'

I'm aware of the anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the Church. Get this, there is anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the atheist community too. Christians uniformly believe that each person is made in the image of God, and that life is about love and relationship. Now these are things that unite us, though many anti-gay atheists cannot even agree on this much. The Bible is most certainly a dangerous thing, but then atheists themselves say, 'truth is a dangerous thing'. Now, I'm not immediately connecting the two, but the Bible is like life, we don't see it as it is, but as we are.

I don't believe Christianity is anti-science. The Church did abuse its power in history, but then the Church is the first to admit it's imperfect. Christians don't seek righteousness, they seek reality. They want only to be truly themselves. Each day, each one of us falls short of ourselves, individually, but more importantly - as a community, as a society. When we want to encourage someone to do the right thing, we say: 'Be a man'. Christians want simply to 'be men' (or women).

Daniel

Luiseach · 06-01-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
Many 'freethinkers' do doubt there even is a reality...

Do you have any sources for us to peruse?

Quote:

And I'm tickled to see how many atheists state their dogma that they have no dogmas.

Why does it amuse you?

Quote:

...atheists themselves say, 'truth is a dangerous thing'.

Again, do you have any sources that state this? Which atheists do you mean?

Jinto · 06-01-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Gosh, thanks to everyone for their input. I'll try to answer as many points raised as I can.

I thought you worshipped God, not Gosh.

Quote:

The primary point for me is reality. To atheists, Christianity lets down the team of Mankind, because it seeks to find solace in dreams and fairytales. To a Christian, however, it is not dreams and fairytales that are unreal, but this fragile, half-hearted world. Christians don't seek less reality, but more.

So let me get this straight: you believe that dreams and fairytales are real, but you don't think that reality is real. Did I read that right?

Next time, take the red pill.

Quote:

Many 'freethinkers' do doubt there even is a reality, that is to say, that reality is real

No, that is your position.

Quote:

For example, when a child looks out of a window onto their lawn and admires the green grass, the freethinker says to the child, 'You know don't you, that there really isn't any grass out there at all. It's just chemicals whirling around in your brain'. But the thinker is making brain chemistry real - his 'ground of reality', by which the relative reality or unreality of everything else is determined

I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Quote:

And this is part of the reason I wanted to know if atheists found the Bible too realistic or too unrealistic. Haven't they ever thought, perhaps it isn't the Bible's reality that's lacking, but this world's?

Ah, so when you look out the window at the green grass, you say "I know that there isn't really any grass out there at all, it's just God whirling around in my brain?"

Quote:

And I'm tickled to see how many atheists state their dogma that they have no dogmas

Ah, and you have some evidence that atheists do have a set of doctrines set forth in an authoritative manner by a church? Or did you just forget to read the definition of dogma?

Quote:

The Old Testament does indeed speak of stoning people to death. Unfortunately it did happen in parts of the world, and I think still does in one or two places. But it was Christ who gave the oft-quoted line: 'Let he without sin cast the first stone.'

Whereupon one of the crowd gave their stone to him and said "If you insist."

Quote:

I'm aware of the anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the Church. Get this, there is anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the atheist community too. Christians uniformly believe that each person is made in the image of God, and that life is about love and relationship. Now these are things that unite us, though many anti-gay atheists cannot even agree on this much. The Bible is most certainly a dangerous thing, but then atheists themselves say, 'truth is a dangerous thing'. Now, I'm not immediately connecting the two, but the Bible is like life, we don't see it as it is, but as we are.

I'm not aware of any anti-gay atheists. Do you, perchance, happen to know where I can find one? I would suspect that they are quite rare, given that they'd have to be illogical to be anti-gay, and such illogic is readily exploited by the church.

I should also like to know where the HELL you found an atheist that said "truth is a dangerous thing," since I can't even concieve of the existence of such a person. Or are you projecting the attitudes of your chruch onto atheists?

Quote:

I don't believe Christianity is anti-science. The Church did abuse its power in history, but then the Church is the first to admit it's imperfect. Christians don't seek righteousness, they seek reality. They want only to be truly themselves. Each day, each one of us falls short of ourselves, individually, but more importantly - as a community, as a society. When we want to encourage someone to do the right thing, we say: 'Be a man'. Christians want simply to 'be men' (or women).

Bull-fucking-shit. Not only is the church anti-science, but you are saying that that is somehow excuseable because "nobody's perfect." Nobody is perfect. That doesn't mean that you are any less guilty. And this is the thing that all of us think is wrong with Christianity: that it gives excactly the same punishment to you whether your only sin is having an uncircumsized penis or murdering 50 million people - an infinite punishment for the smallest crime, and no punishment whatsoever for the most heinous of crimes, just because the latter carried a get out of hell free card... er, I mean a personal belief in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour. And this transfers to Christians as well: they get away with continuing to sin because "well, nobody's perfect," thereby completely bypassing the concept of accountability for thier actions, or the necessity of NOT trying to stop scientists from researching just because it challenges your faith.

Imagine if you will a child whose parents take a strict disciplinarian approach, threatening severe punishment for any infraction. But, being also merciful, if the child sincerely apoligizes for his actions, he will recieve no punishment. In fact, they'll even take him out for ice cream. Now even a drunken idiot with a frontal lobotomy can see that said child will learn to stop misbehaving. He may very well be sincerely sorry after doing things wrong, but he will never stop.

The parents in this analogy are God, and the child is your typical believer. Is it any wonder that Christians are masters at being hypocrites when their fictional father acts in this manner?

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 09:32 PM

danielius,

Quote:

And I'm tickled to see how many atheists state their dogma that they have no dogmas.

Incorrect, yet again. All beliefs that I hold are subject to question. Therefore, by definition I hold no dogma, and the statement "I adhere to no dogmas" is not a dogma.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Goliath · 06-01-2003, 09:34 PM

danielius,

Quote:

To atheists, Christianity lets down the team of Mankind, because it seeks to find solace in dreams and fairytales.

I am an atheist, and I do not believe this.

On a related note, why are you posting to this message board? If your answer is to learn more about atheists, then why do you presume to know so many things about us (especially when you seem to know nothing about atheism)?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Bumble Bee Tuna · 06-01-2003, 11:07 PM

Is Christianity a reasonab le worldview?

No. To be reasonable, it would have to be a worldview arrived at through reason. It is not. Pretty simple...

Quote:

Originally posted by danielius
I've read quite a few comments here to the effect that Christianity is anti-reason or anti-science, that it is bigoted, fanciful, inconsistent etc.

Well actually, Christians can warp Christianity to suit just about anything. So I will only say that Christianity in the form where you do not ignore the actual scriptures and church teachings is all of those things. Some Christians ignore most of the religion and can thus be scientific, unbigoted, consistent, etc...

I actually think that atheists are one of the best arguments for God's existence. I cannot myself recall any time when whole forums were dedicated to the purported existence or otherwise of Santa Claus, nor have I yet to encounter any brilliant debate on the fallacy of Mrs Tooth Fairy. No freethinker ever attempts to blow the three little pigs' temples down, though the first is made only of straw.

Do you realize how foolish this is? Christianity is debated by atheists not because they deem it any more likely than Santa Claus, but because there is no point in arguing about Santa Claus: Nobody believes in him. But billions believe in Yahweh, and they affect atheists' lives. Thus, we debate Christianity. So what this really is is an argument from numbers, which is entirely fallacious. And of course, if that's your best argument for God, it logically follows that all your other arguments are worse and thus also fallacious, meaning you have absolutely no reaosnable arguments for God, meaning you have answered your OP's topic question: No, Christianity is not a reasonable worldview.

To argue that the Bible is too violent is at the same time to argue that it is too realistic. To state that it is an incongruous fairytale, is to state that we are all incongruous fairies.

Yes, it is to argue that it is too realistic. And since it is meant to be fantastic, not realistic, that doesn't make any sense. It's supposed to be His Holiness Himself acting here, and yet it is still the same violence you would get from humans. Your second sentence only holds if you assume the Bible is true, which of course would be circular logic. And of course, these are strawmen: Atheists don't tend to be atheists because "The Bible is too violent" but because there is no evidence for the Bible being true.

There is nothing quite so old in every conceivable sense of the word as that which we call atheism. The modern tries to be ten minutes ahead of the present, and ends up nineteen centuries behind. An atheist teenager is not merely older at heart than their grandfather, they are older than India.

So what you're trying to say is that atheism is primitive and thus bad? Wonderful. There is nothing quite so old in every concievable sense as language. A speaking human is not merely older at heart than their grandfather, they are older than India. WTF? This argument makes no sense, and adds another point to your "fallacious" tally, which is getting awful big now.

What exactly is the point you're trying to make, here? I responded to your first post because your subsequent posts didn't really seem to be following the same path as your first post.

So what I would really like to know, is this:

What points were you trying to make in your OP?
What are you trying to say?
Assuming your answers are something along the lines of "I wish to show that Christianity is a reasonable worldview", let me advise you:

To show that Christianity is reasonable worldview, you will need to show a logical process of reasoning which leads to the conclusion "Therefore Christianity is likely" or "Therefore Christianity is true". You must then defend this reasoning against rebuttals. This is at least according to my definition of "reasonable". Even better would be for you to start off an argument where you define Christianity and Reasonable. THEN try to show how Christianity is reasonable. Also, even though it seems off topic, but please define dogma for us, as your definition appears to be different from the rest of ours (your definition renders the word meaningless, IMO).

Forgive me for trying to formalize things, here, but I really couldn't find the direction this thread is supposed to be taking. Please take control of it and elucidate on what you would like to discuss.

-B

danielius · 06-02-2003, 04:33 AM

What is 'reasonable'?

Quote:

reasonable - within due limits, marked by sound judgment, sane

I believe Christianity is reasonable, relative to the extraordinary nature and character of being alive and a unique, conscious, self-aware living process. Being that life is so fantastic - even in the literal sense - so mysterious and so wonderful (again in the literal sense), I hold that the Christian world-view is proportionate in its embrace of story, of mystery, of wonder.

What is a 'dogma'?

Quote:

dogma - a doctrine or code of beliefs accepted as authoritative; an authoritative statement of ideas or opinion

My dictionary also states with regard 'dogma' - "Dogma has in our language acquired, to some extent, a repulsive sense, from its carrying with it the idea of undue authority or assumption."

(Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary)

Everyone has dogmas in this ordinary sense, ideas or beliefs which they hold to be authoritative; a yardstick by which they measure up new ideas or opinions. So the person who states that they have no dogmas because all their beliefs are subject to question, has in fact stated their dogma that all beliefs they hold must be subject to question. It is simply the ABC of thinking.

I was an atheist at one time. I was brought up without any fixed ideas on religion or God. I came to faith through study, and then because I found Christianity's a reasonable world-view. Now, I do not say that it is the only world-view, or the only reasonable world-view. It is enough for me to know that it is a proportionate and sane way of looking at things, including everything.

Now, this is a point also worth affirming: I abhor violence and bigotry. I hate it whether it is done by those who profess religion or by those who profess none. It is one-dimensional however to argue that Christianity is a violent religion. I don't subscribe to the idea that extremes are in themselves bad, and that in everything we must avoid one clear thing or another and end up with something compromised. Sometimes it is justifiable to feel the extreme emotion of anger, or of hate (or of love for that matter). I hate murder. Hate it. That there is poverty raging in the world makes me very angry. These are extreme emotions, but proportionate and real ones. Christianity wasn't only home to the Crusaders; but to pacifists - today we have Quakers. If an atheist will accuse Christianity of an extreme, I would only ask that they be honest enough to admit the other with it. If you must accuse Christianity of loving war, don't forget also to accuse it of hating war.

Finally, to the question of reality. Yes, I find reality real, only that it isn't real enough. As I've said already, Christians don't ask for less reality, but for more. The universe is meant to contain all things, yet it can't contain the imagination of a single child. We never see people looking for more air, but we do see people - a very great many - looking for more reality.

Daniel

keyser_soze · 06-02-2003, 04:44 AM

I think you will find that most atheists define dogma as

(a la merriam webster also...naughty, you left out the definition you didn't like....)

2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church

No fair picking and choosing, we try to not engage in christian pasttimes.....

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06-01-2003, 04:48 PM	#23
danielius Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: UK Posts: 51	Gosh, thanks to everyone for their input. I'll try to answer as many points raised as I can. The primary point for me is reality. To atheists, Christianity lets down the team of Mankind, because it seeks to find solace in dreams and fairytales. To a Christian, however, it is not dreams and fairytales that are unreal, but this fragile, half-hearted world. Christians don't seek less reality, but more. Many 'freethinkers' do doubt there even is a reality, that is to say, that reality is real. For example, when a child looks out of a window onto their lawn and admires the green grass, the freethinker says to the child, 'You know don't you, that there really isn't any grass out there at all. It's just chemicals whirling around in your brain'. But the thinker is making brain chemistry real - his 'ground of reality', by which the relative reality or unreality of everything else is determined. And this is part of the reason I wanted to know if atheists found the Bible too realistic or too unrealistic. Haven't they ever thought, perhaps it isn't the Bible's reality that's lacking, but this world's? And I'm tickled to see how many atheists state their dogma that they have no dogmas. The Old Testament does indeed speak of stoning people to death. Unfortunately it did happen in parts of the world, and I think still does in one or two places. But it was Christ who gave the oft-quoted line: 'Let he without sin cast the first stone.' I'm aware of the anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the Church. Get this, there is anti-gay prejudice in some parts of the atheist community too. Christians uniformly believe that each person is made in the image of God, and that life is about love and relationship. Now these are things that unite us, though many anti-gay atheists cannot even agree on this much. The Bible is most certainly a dangerous thing, but then atheists themselves say, 'truth is a dangerous thing'. Now, I'm not immediately connecting the two, but the Bible is like life, we don't see it as it is, but as we are. I don't believe Christianity is anti-science. The Church did abuse its power in history, but then the Church is the first to admit it's imperfect. Christians don't seek righteousness, they seek reality. They want only to be truly themselves. Each day, each one of us falls short of ourselves, individually, but more importantly - as a community, as a society. When we want to encourage someone to do the right thing, we say: 'Be a man'. Christians want simply to 'be men' (or women). Daniel

06-02-2003, 04:44 AM	#30
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	I think you will find that most atheists define dogma as (a la merriam webster also...naughty, you left out the definition you didn't like....) 2 : a doctrine or body of doctrines concerning faith or morals formally stated and authoritatively proclaimed by a church No fair picking and choosing, we try to not engage in christian pasttimes.....

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