Writer@Large

I know, it wasn't very good. But it's hard to find a parallell to "I am morally and religiously opposed to ________" in the realm of Freshman Literature . I still feel the point's valid, though. If that student was failed on that question, then the teacher, to be fair, would have to put every other student who answered the question through the same "faith test" before passing them; after all, just because this little ChristBot couldn't keep her views to herself doesn't mean there aren't others lurking in the class who hid it better.

Oedipus is the very definition of the tragic hero, according to Aristotle, who coined the idea. And Euripides was a young upstart with wild ideas who couldn't even build proper catharsis, let alone solid chorus .

--W@L

Quetzal

Would it be possible to give the student an "A" for content and an "F" for judgement?

Oolon Colluphid

Yeah yeah, 'a good man brought low by his flaws'. How about Agamemnon? Crimson carpet hubris! Or Willy Loman? The type specimen isn't necessarily the best one, or the most representative.

Yeah, like making his characters emotionally involving, not cardboard cut-outs You saying you can get as worked up about Kreon and you can about that sententious prick Jason?

Wasn't that the point? Wanna talk subversive use of deus ex machina?

Yeah, but we all know the chorus is the really boring bits in between the action If you want a long poem, call in yer rhapsodos. If you want a play, the cry goes up: Get on with it!

Gee, that was fun! I haven't thought about that stuff since about 1989!

Cheers, Oolon Colluphid, BA (hons), Classical Studies (ie in the dim and distant past I knew about these things... )

leonarde

To me there is at least a 3 way distinction:

1)regurgitation: repeating more or less word for
word without understanding.

2)understanding: something deeper than the above
but itself having different levels.

3)acceptance as part of worldview: depends on
compatibility of new idea(s), concepts, theories
with preexisting beliefs.

The tendency to conflate 3) with 2) seems to be the trouble here: I understand Marxism-Leninism
fairly well but I'm not a Marxist/Leninist: should
I be downgraded in a philosophy or poli sci course
for being a disbeliever in that philosophy/ideolo-
gy?

Cheers!

Skydancer

Is it even possible to believe Marxist/Leninist theory if you understand it?

Seriously, you have to grade a student based on her answers. I would note this incident in any recommendation she wanted for medical school or college, though, unless she got over it before graduation.

katerina

No. Well, perhaps. Depends on the discrimination laws. If the school were in America and a professor sent out a letter making reference of any kind to race, religion, gender, marital status, medical condition, sexual orientation, the school can be slapped with a nice, big fat lawsuit.

Oolon Colluphid

But surely this is not discrimination, it is informing them of a crucial piece of information about the attitudes of the candidate. In this case, being firmly set against a fundamental piece of science, despite knowing about it. A parallel: being a Muslim would be irrelevant; being a member of Al Qa'ida (sp?) might be less so. It would be up to the school whether and how they acted on the information.

Oolon

Koyaanisqatsi

I'm not sure the Marxist/Leninist analogy works, either, since there is a significant difference between becoming a socialist and understanding "socialism" as a political ideology.

Perhaps if we break it all down to the most basic elements?

In this case, there is a student negating, in essence, the entire concept of what it means to be a student right from the start, which in turn means that she is confessing that nothing about what she was taught had any impact on her deliberately and as a consciously preconceived action on her part.

Beyond the creation/evolution thing, this student is quite clearly stating, "I am not a student. I am not here to learn, just regurgitate. I am only serving time."

It is defiant, overt, sad and, to a lesser degree, rude. It is (coincidentally) exactly how I felt in public school, too, though for different reasons, and probably what most kids think.

So the question goes more to the teacher and what position this puts them into. Obviously you can't force anyone to be a student (other than in name only), but isn't there some sort of "hypocratic oath"-like principle at stake here?

You've got a student who is saying, in essence, "Fuck off, I'm not a student and I'm not going to learn anything." What her beliefs are shouldn't really be a consideration at all, IMO.

I don't know, I'm not a teacher, but it seems to me that there is something more fundamental here; triggered by her cult programming, certainly, but ultimately more of a question of what are the guiding tenets or principles of teaching.

If I were a teacher and this happened in my class, I would take it as a clue to focus more on that lost mind; I would take her disclaimer as a cry for help and do everything possible to jump-start her brain again and demonstrate why being a student in name only is to her greatest detriment.

Then, of course, I'd hire Alan Dershowitz and brace for the lawsuit.

katerina

Sorry, in America, this is the way it is.

Doesn't matter if the prof thinks it is relevant or not.

Verbage that gets flagged is:

"I thought she was an excellent student, even more so because she was caring for five children under the age of ten."

"While she was writing her dissertation she underwent major surgery on her eyes for a cornea disease. I was highly impressed that she continued to work diligently and regularly on her work despite a difficult personal situation."

"she is a first rate woman physicist" (saw this in a physics dossier).

"(from a professor in China) ____ is a very diligent student who has made every progress under my direction. He is also a Christian."

[anecdote: the last one led to the department offering the student, a guy who had the MO of a house-church pastor in China and clearly non-traditional for reasons of age and presentation of dossier, and who clearly had been shut out of his department for his beliefs [all the letters dated three years prior], entrance. I figured that the dept. was doing its human rights duty.]

katerina

Another example.

Immunology professor shuts a practicing fundie out of his lab the month before the completion of her dissertation because 'student is clearly crazy due to her religious beliefs.' Student takes it to the dean, there is a hearing before a faculty board, and professor is ordered to provide the student with lab space and a private office with computer so that she can complete her work without hampering by advisor. Advisor begins telling his immunology colleagues that she is crazy, etc.

Student wins the prize for the best dissertation of the major research university when she defends.

Student publishes a book on immunology in the six months following the defense of the dissertation.

Student has a JAMA article in the first months following the dissertation.

Student wins a very competitive internship in surgery for the next fall.

Student is still a fundie.

Professor is no longer allowed to take on graduate students.