Crouton

Agreed. In addition, that movie has spurred people to think about things that they never thought about before. All of a sudden, people who previously cared or knew little about philosophy are talking about subject of great philisophical importance. They might not have the depth of understanding that a lover of philosophy has, but if it gets people thinking and questioning, it's a step toward a more enlightened future (albeit a small one).

Crouton

She enjoyed The Matrix and even enjoyed the more philisophical bits, but the main reason she liked it was due to the interesting story. When I found out that she liked it, I was excited. It was a window into talking about philosophy. Not long after we started talking about it, she felt like she was at a disadvantage in conversation. This is what frustrates her and chills her inclination to talk about such subjects.

Pyrrho

In that case, you might want to get her to take a philosophy course at a local community college. She could take an evening class, and she could audit it if she wishes (so she would not have to worry about a grade). If she has had no philosophy, then she can begin with Introduction to Philosophy, then take an introductory Logic course, and then whatever they offer that interests her at that point.

You could also suggest some "down to earth" kinds of philosophers. Epicurus comes to mind.

http://www.atomic-swerve.net/tpg/

http://www.epicurus.net/


If the reason she doesn't want to talk with you about philosophy is because you have the advantage, then it seems that you have three choices:

1) She learns more so that she does not feel she is at a disadvantage;
2) You refrain from saying all that you feel like saying, so she does not feel like she is so much at a disadvantage;
3) Don't talk about philosophy with her.

I recommend attempting a bit of each.

Also, if you want her to learn about something that interests you, it would only be fair for you to learn about something that interests her. (If you are unwilling to discuss things that interest her, why should she be willing to discuss things that interest you?) That would also help with her not feeling at a disadvantage with philosophy, as she would have the advantage in this other area.

So, I recommend a kind of deal between you and your wife, where you spend as much time and effort on something that interests her as she spends on philosophy. With an equal deal like this, she is less likely to feel like she is at a disadvantage, and she will be more likely to be willing to discuss what interests you. And without the deal (or some such deal), I'm on your wife's side, and think you shouldn't bother your wife with things that she isn't interested in.

John Page

I counsel patience, the issues need deep thought and many people (in my humble experience) need to sift them over and arrive at their own determination. I suggest you couch statements in ways that show you don't know the answer (BTW, not a difficult tactic for moi to embrace!!) and are seeking input from a different point of view. Probing questions are a good tactic e.g. "I can't decide whether ..."

The final resort is Philosophy as Entertainment!

Cheers, John

soulofdarwin

Have you considered that she might think, as I do, that intellectualization for the sake of intellectualization has no purpose, and, therefore, is of no value? For my part, I never found it necessary to delve into the architecture of thought or of logical argument in acquiring the ability to analyze matters and to present an argument supported by fact and reason. My lack of interest in what our ancestors might have been thinking as they contemplated their navels is most likely due to my suspicion that 99.999 percent of philosophical discussion is nothing more than intellectual spinning leading nowhere - an argument chasing an argument. It seems that Nobel Laureate particle physicist Steven Weinberg shares that suspiscion, at least to some extent, as, in his book 'Dreams of a Final Theory', he makes the case that 20th century philosophers have contributed absolutely nothing to the advancement of knowledge. I am confident that you are aware of the fact that the increase in human understanding of our universe within the past 100 years exceeds by many magnitudes all that has gone before.

I do not separate philosophy and science because I am of the opinion that knowledge does not exist apart from that body of knowledge which comprises universal law. Clearly, we, as thinking beings, are capable of formulating ideas that have no connection to reality, and which, therefore, have nothing to do with knowledge. Because both philosophy and science have as their object the pursuit of knowledge, and because there is only one body of knowledge in existence, these two realms of intellectual endeavor are indistinguishable in my view. When we, as individuals, speak of our philosophy, we refer to the collective ideas that constitute our perception of the universe and of our relationship to it. These ideas are either correct, in which case they are knowledge, or incorrect, in which case they are only ideas. You might want to ask your wife whether or not she shares this view. It is possible that her lack of interest is quite well-founded.

Crouton

That's a good suggestion, except that since I have experience in philisophical discussions, I have some of the answers IMO. But even for those, before I give my opinion, I always ask her what she thinks about the subject. I think it's at that point that she feels trapped. She knows that I already know something about it.

Crouton

It is of the highest probability that the view you described has not occured to her for the simple fact that she doesn't think about epistemology. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear in my earlier posts. Your view is interesting to me, however, and I invite you start a new thread about that view.

soulofdarwin

Nothing else occurs to me on the matter. However, you might want to take a look at my thread "General Theorem of Existence" in the Moral Foundations forum page 2 (posted 5 June) for a follow-on discussion along that line of thought.

intjudo

Crouton, I suggest looking to the laws of behaviorism for guidance. A great place to start is the book "Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor.

-->> Not long after we started talking about it, she felt like she was at a disadvantage in conversation. This is what frustrates her and chills her inclination to talk about such subjects. <<--

A very basic behavioristic principle is involved here: your wife feels *punished* when you have a philosophical discussion.

You need to alter your behaviors so that your wife feels *rewarded* when you have a philosophical discussion.

Start small. As soon as she says anything remotely philosophical, praise her somehow (agreeing, praising the thinking that went into the remark, whatever) and *immediately change the subject*. She'll feel rewarded for saying something philosophical, which may induce her to do it again sometime. When she does, repeat: reward her with your tone of voice and a compliment, then change the subject (this is important, you need to build up to conversations. It won't happen all at once.)

You'll need to be *vigilent* so you can catch it when she says something philosophical, and respond *immediately* with the reward. But real casual-like.

Over time, you can try a response that doesn't serve to express your opinions so much as to elicit a second philosophical byte from your wife. If/when this occurs, reward her again as described above and *change the conversation to something she likes talking about*.

Oh yeah, relationships and conversational preferences are give-and-take. If you want her to talk philosophy, you need to learn to take an interest in whatever she likes talking about. She's more likely to get excited about your subjects if you get excited about hers. Be as open to exploring new conversational directions as you'd like her to be.

Gradually you should be able to lengthen the conversations. Remember: right now she feels *punished* whenever she gets into a philosophical conversation with you. Make her feel *rewarded* instead and you'll both get a lot farther.

And seriously - read that book. It'll help you train your pets and it will actually improve your human relationships as well.

It's a long term project - let us know how it goes!