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Horia Plugaru · 10-30-2002, 11:37 PM

ManM:

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I changed the premise to make your scenario analogous to your original argument. It is not a question of if I will see God, but when. And so in your analogy, there shouldn't be uncertainty regarding the son's health.

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Again you miss the point of my analogy. When I gave you my example with M and C, I wanted to ilustrate what a very strong desire is and that it isn't as easy as you think to rationally and totally control your most intense and important desire- -even for a short period of time, let alone for a whole life time. M is under such a serious pression precisely because she doesn't know at all whether C will survive. If you change the premise of my original example--saying now that in fact M will know, then we are talking about something entirely else.

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In my experience, a mother in this situation does exactly the opposite: she spends as much time she can with her sick son. And so on one hand I have your rhetoric, and on the other I have the actions of real mothers. This leads to a dilemma for you.

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It is important to notice that I didn't say that she could simply go to a "normal", natural sleep. Of course she would be too troubled to simply go to sleep and fall at sleep with no problem. I explicitly said that she could ease her suffering by taking sleeping pils or something like that.
It is clear that many people who are under tremendous pressure for long periods of time usually do exactly this: start to drink, to take drugs and yes, they commit suicide etc. in order to ease their suffering.
If M will be constantly under this tremendous pressure for long time intervals and she would know that no matter how much time will pass, she won't find out whether C will survive or not, I submit that she will do exactly this. And there are other important points here that I made and that you didn't dispute.

The only addition I have to make here is that in order to specifically reffer to my second example with M and C instead of "she won't find out whether C will survive or not" I will say "she won't find out when C will get better". My argument then proceeds in exactly the same manner. It is also essential not to forget that

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Also M knows that there is absolutely nothing she could do to hasten C's getting better or to at least ease C's suffering (if you don't commit suicide there is nothing you can do to hasten your meeting with God, in other words, to achieve your intensely desired goal- -or at least to ease your suffering).

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This is how you dodged the dilemma before, but I want a clean response. You say that a mother should take sleeping pills. My mother didn't. Did she not love me? Did she enjoy the pain she was experiencing?

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Were you in C's situation from my second example? You just mentioned a cold. Moreover, presumably, your mother could do something to ease your suffering. Not the same with M and C. I've already said that there certainly are situations in which desire is not that painful as to make one to commit suicide:

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It depends on how intense and how important this desire is--and don't ignore the time period it takes to fulfill it either.
If, for example, I strongly desire to watch my favorite TV show which will begin in half an hour, but meanwhile I can read an article that is also important to me--although not as important as watching the show--it is clear that the desire to watch the show in this half an hour will not be very painful. It would be obviously absurd to commit suicide under these conditions.

Thses situations however are not relevant to our discution.
A mother's desire to see her son getting well after he suffered a cold is in obvious ways disanaloguos to M's case in both of my examples.

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I addressed these bad analogies before. A desire for God, a desire for a child's health, or a desire for Christmas presents is not analogous to a need for food or a physical addiction. Hunger is painful because your body needs food. A physical addiction occurs when pain is involved in quitting. There are no painful physical side effects involved when a child waits for his Christmas presents.

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You are missing the point. The point is that in all those cases people are under very serious pressure and tension. They all very, very strongly desire something and they can hardly resist the temptation.

Horia.

ManM · 10-31-2002, 12:21 PM

Horia Plugaru,
You can't have it both ways.

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It depends on how intense and how important this desire is--and don't ignore the time period it takes to fulfill it either.
If, for example, I strongly desire to watch my favorite TV show which will begin in half an hour, but meanwhile I can read an article that is also important to me--although not as important as watching the show--it is clear that the desire to watch the show in this half an hour will not be very painful.

You are forgetting that your desire to watch the show is extremely strong and every minute that goes by is excruciatingly painful. The importance of the article is irrelevant because of your extremely strong desire to watch the show in 30 minutes. If you say otherwise, then you must not really desire to watch the show in 30 minutes.

Moving on.

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You are missing the point. The point is that in all those cases people are under very serious pressure and tension. They all very, very strongly desire something and they can hardly resist the temptation.

Yes, they are under very serious pressure and tension. People succumb to temptation, especially when they desire something out of a physical necessity. This does not disprove my point. Sarcasm aside, you seem to realize that the desire to watch an upcoming TV show does not automatically force a person to writhe in torment until the time of the show. There are far more productive uses of that time, like reading a magazine article. Why is 30 minutes any different from an hour? Why is an hour any different from 6 hours? Don't you have an interesting magazine to read? And here is a good question: Does your desire to watch the TV show make the magazine any less interesting?

Bumble Bee Tuna · 11-02-2002, 11:39 PM

Well, we could try to summarize the different dogmas.

1. You go to heaven right away when you die.

The ASC will apply- mathematically, X years of mediocre life plus Y years of perfect heaven is worse than X years of perfect heaven plus Y years of perfect heaven.

2. You enjoy your life more than you don't enjoy it, and you believe that there is a definite period of time between now and the "resurrection" but that you will have no feeling during that time.

The ASC will not apply- mathematically, X years of mediocre life plus Y years of perfect life is better than just Y years of perfect life. This appears to be ManM's case- somehow he enjoys life despite his desire for God.

3. You enjoy your life less than you don't enjoy it, and you believe that there is a definite period of time between now and the "resurrection" but that you will have no feeling during that time.

The ASC will apply. Mathematically- X years of bad (negative) life plus Y years of perfect life is worse than just the Y years of perfect life.

4. You believe that there is going to be a set period of time in "purgatory" where you will have to be "purified" before going to heaven. This time will be the same amount regardless of when you died. I think this belief set is pretty rare but I think it does at least exist.

The ASC will apply. Mathematically- X years of imperfect life on earth, plus Y years of still imperfect life in Purgatory, plus Z years of perfect life in Heaven will be better than (X+dX) years of imperfect life on earth plus Y years of still imperfect life in Purgatory, plus (Z-dX) years of perfect life in heaven.

The only case it doesn't apply is ManM's. And that one is actually largely situational. For isntance, if the time between now and Heaven is a sleep with pleasant dreams...Are those dreams more enjoyable than life on earth? if so, it does apply.
Or you could argue that it's relative- From ManM's perspective, at least, it would seem like he got to Heaven sooner. Sure, he didn't...but who cares? Whose perspective matters, aside from his? We're trying to maximize his enjoyment here.

I'm surprised the best (IMO) argument for not committing suicide hasn't been brought up- Your argument says that it is highly improbable that suicide will still get you into Heaven. It does not prove it irrefutably. The Christian can't know for sure. As a result, they can stand to live however much longer in this mediocre life, just in case suicide would be bad. It's an acceptable risk, a very short time on Earth to make sure you don't risk eternal damnation.

Heh, I have to argue the Christian side here, because as much as I'd like to see the religion abolished, unfortunately my brother and girlfriend are both Christians and I certainly don't want them to kill themselves.

Edited because I called ManM "MadM". Guess I was thinking of all of the times people abbreviate Mad Mordigan.

-B

[ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Bumble Bee Tuna ]</p>

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11-02-2002, 11:39 PM	#33
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	Well, we could try to summarize the different dogmas. 1. You go to heaven right away when you die. The ASC will apply- mathematically, X years of mediocre life plus Y years of perfect heaven is worse than X years of perfect heaven plus Y years of perfect heaven. 2. You enjoy your life more than you don't enjoy it, and you believe that there is a definite period of time between now and the "resurrection" but that you will have no feeling during that time. The ASC will not apply- mathematically, X years of mediocre life plus Y years of perfect life is better than just Y years of perfect life. This appears to be ManM's case- somehow he enjoys life despite his desire for God. 3. You enjoy your life less than you don't enjoy it, and you believe that there is a definite period of time between now and the "resurrection" but that you will have no feeling during that time. The ASC will apply. Mathematically- X years of bad (negative) life plus Y years of perfect life is worse than just the Y years of perfect life. 4. You believe that there is going to be a set period of time in "purgatory" where you will have to be "purified" before going to heaven. This time will be the same amount regardless of when you died. I think this belief set is pretty rare but I think it does at least exist. The ASC will apply. Mathematically- X years of imperfect life on earth, plus Y years of still imperfect life in Purgatory, plus Z years of perfect life in Heaven will be better than (X+dX) years of imperfect life on earth plus Y years of still imperfect life in Purgatory, plus (Z-dX) years of perfect life in heaven. The only case it doesn't apply is ManM's. And that one is actually largely situational. For isntance, if the time between now and Heaven is a sleep with pleasant dreams...Are those dreams more enjoyable than life on earth? if so, it does apply. Or you could argue that it's relative- From ManM's perspective, at least, it would seem like he got to Heaven sooner. Sure, he didn't...but who cares? Whose perspective matters, aside from his? We're trying to maximize his enjoyment here. I'm surprised the best (IMO) argument for not committing suicide hasn't been brought up- Your argument says that it is highly improbable that suicide will still get you into Heaven. It does not prove it irrefutably. The Christian can't know for sure. As a result, they can stand to live however much longer in this mediocre life, just in case suicide would be bad. It's an acceptable risk, a very short time on Earth to make sure you don't risk eternal damnation. Heh, I have to argue the Christian side here, because as much as I'd like to see the religion abolished, unfortunately my brother and girlfriend are both Christians and I certainly don't want them to kill themselves. Edited because I called ManM "MadM". Guess I was thinking of all of the times people abbreviate Mad Mordigan. -B [ November 03, 2002: Message edited by: Bumble Bee Tuna ]</p>

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