scigirl

GeoTheo,

Yes in a sense I did make a bit of a false dichotomy argument (if you aren't for us you are against us). Thank you for pointing that out.

However, it's not just the attitudes of some Christians that I have a problem with. It is the actions that stem from those beliefs.

Many laws, from our secular government, are designed to take rights away from homosexuals. In the state of Montana, for instance, it is illegal to practice sodomy, or any other form of gay sex. Of course it isn't enforced - but I can only imagine how I'd feel if the laws, and MANY MANY PEOPLE thought that the loving relationship I have with my boyfriend is so wrong it should be illegal!! They tried to take the law off the books a few years ago, and all the fundies screamed "you are taking away family values and montana will go straight to hell" so they left it on the books.

And there are many laws which of course ARE enforced - just the fact that gay men, or women, are not allowed to marry and are not conferred all the rights and priveledges thereof, makes me ill just thinking about it.

Why do these laws exist??? Because of religion, no other reason. In order for Christians to even have the right to pass anti-gay laws, they have to prove, without using the Bible, that homosexuality is wrong and immoral. I have yet to see any argument that even comes close to a rational one - that justifies outlawing gay marriage, gay sex, etc yet still allows heterosexual sex. Do you have an argument, aside from "eww it's gross?" Separation of church and state has not prevented these bigoted laws, and it's time that we take action - christians and atheists alike.

BTW - you can practice sodomy if you are not gay. Should my (future) husband be denied health insurance if he decides to enter the "other" whole on me occasionally? Yes this sounds vulgar, but that's what gay sex is - let's get it out on the table and talk about it!

GeoTheo - have you ever been in love? How would you feel if a religious organization used the secular government to tell you who you should and shouldn't love, and how you can and can't express that love? How would you feel? And have you even ever thought about it?

scigirl

Godless Dave

If you could demonstrate that homosexual behavior is harmful to society then you would have what I call a good reason.

If you could demonstrate that homosexual behavior is harmful to the participants in their position before God you would also have a good reason, but to do so you would have to demonstrate that you know what God wants, which I am confident that you cannot do.

brighid

No – homosexuals do not have a choice in the matter of their sexuality, nor more then you have a choice in your sexuality but their sexual nature does not cause them to infringe upon the rights of others OR harm children. So what’s your point? Therefore it makes no sense to deny them equal treatment under secular law because religious law deems them immoral, equally immoral to their divorcee brethren, and all other sinners but those other sinners don’t seem to meet oppression to quite the same extent as the gay man or woman does. Is the hypocrisy becoming clearer to you yet?

It is not bigoted to be opposed to an opinion that has no basis in fact and is applied in a hypocritical nature. If you hold any of the aforementioned opinions (none of which are based on any fact) and you do obstinately you are by definition a bigot. Disagreeing with an opinion does not make one a bigot.


B

scigirl

If you equate a relationship between two consenting adults with pediphilia or necrophilia, apparently you have never been in love. For that, I am truly sorry, and I hope you find out what it feels like someday.

And I am also sorry that pointing out that your precious bible contains some moral inconsistencies makes societiy re-evaluate its views on sexuality. What are you so afraid of? Things that we consider "vulgar" today may not be vulgar tomorrow? Not too long ago, black and white unions were considered vulgar and unnatural. Masterbation was considered a sin that would cause you to go blind or some dumb crap like that. Today I think we are more "enlightened." The things on your list, which bear no semblance to homosexuality, have been nicely debunked by other posters so I will not re-hedge these arguments.
You know what GeoTheo, the burden of proof is on YOU. Prove, without using your bible, that the secular government has the right to deny homosexuals the right to marry, have sex, and have children.

Can you provide a logical, rational argument without either throwing out the first amendment to the constitution, or without giving the government control of our sex lives that's more oppresive than Pakistan?

Let's hear it.

scigirl

GeoTheo

I am glad you appreciate it when I point out your logical inconsistencies. I will be glad to oblige you some more.
Being an atheist, and not given to a belief in "God given" rights, how can you say that enforcing laws "already on the books" "take away" the rights of gays to engage in sexual acts?
When did they recieve these rights and by whom? How can the be taken away if they never had them to begin with?
As far as it harming society. Who are you to say that changing society will not harm it? Perhaps I like it the way it is and any change to it will harm me. Besides I already know what American society looks like with homosexuality as a taboo.
I have 300 years of history to look at you don't.

GeoTheo

Actually the burden of proof is on you. Homosexual Unions having equal status to marriage is a NEW IDEA. It has never been done. I have proof that We have gotten by for several hundred years without it just fine.

scigirl

GeoTheo,

Step outside of yourself, and your religious beliefs for a minute, and try to see the point of view from a homosexual. I really like this site titled Godhatesstraights (I tried to link to it but it appears to be down.) It's a parody of the Godhatesfags, but it asks us to imagine a world where heterosexuality is the deviation, not the norm. Every time we assume someone is straight, every time we talk about our spouses and plaster their pictures all over our cubicles but whine "why can't the gays keep their lifestyle to themselves?" we are acting in a bigoted fashion.

My favorite from that site was the following "questionaire:"

The Heterosexual Questionnaire
1. What do you think caused your heterosexuality?
2. When and how did you decide you were a heterosexual?
3. Is it possible that your heterosexuality is just a phase you may grow out of?
4. Is it possible that your heterosexuality stems from a neurotic fear of others of the same sex?
5. If you have never slept with a person of the same sex, is it possible that all you need is a good lesbian/gay lover?
6. Heterosexuals have a history of failures in gay relationships. Do you think you may have turned heterosexual out of fear of rejection?
7. Do your parents know that you are straight? Do your friends and/or roommate(s) know? How did they react?
8. Why do you insist on flaunting your heterosexuality with wedding rings, photos at work, and talk of your heterosexual escapades? Can't you just be who you are and keep it quiet?
9. Why do heterosexuals place so much emphasis on sex?
10. Why do heterosexuals feel compelled to seduce others into their lifestyle?
11. Are cancer, earthquakes and floods god's way of punishing heterosexuals?
12. A disproportionate majority of child molesters are heterosexual. Do you consider it safe to expose children to heterosexual teachers?
13. Just what do women and men do in bed together? How can they truly know how to please each other, being so anatomically different?
14. With all the societal support marriage receives, the divorce rate is spiraling. Why are there so few stable relationships among heterosexuals?
15. Statistics show that lesbians have the lowest incidence of sexually transmitted diseases. Is it really safe for a woman to maintain a heterosexual lifestyle and run the risk of disease and pregnancy?
16. How can you be a whole person if you limit yourself to compulsive, exclusive heterosexuality and remain unwilling to explore and develop your normal, healthy homosexual potential?
17. Considering the menace of overpopulation, how could the human race survive if everyone were heterosexual?
18. Could you trust a heterosexual therapist to be objective? Don't you feel they might be inclined to influence you in the direction of their own learnings?
19. There seem to be very few happy heterosexuals. Techniques have to be developed that might enable you to change if you really want to. Have you considered aversion therapy?
20. Would you want your child to be heterosexual, knowing the problems that they would face?

GeoTheo - read through this list and think about this issue. That's all I ask of you.

scigirl

GeoTheo

My religious beliefs do not require me to convince you that I know what God wants. They only require me to know and to act accordingly

scigirl

Geo, that's your argument? Read it with a few words changed:
QUOTE]Modified from GeoTheo:
Actually the burden of proof is on you. Women having equal status is a NEW IDEA. It has never been done. I have proof that We have gotten by for several hundred years without it just fine.[/QUOTE]
So we've discriminated against them for hundreds of years so it's ok? I don't think so.

So am I correct in assuming . .you don't have any logical or rational reason to outlaw gay marriage, outside of your religious beliefs? So you think we should keep outlawing them just because they've always been outlawed?

I also disagree that we've been "just fine" - ask a gay or lesbian if they are just okey dokey with not being able to marry the person they love, and gain the rights/priveleges associated with marriage, such as tax benefits, being able to give medical consent for each other, adopting children, just being respected and accepted by the community instead of being made to feel guilty for love etc, etc.

scigirl

P.S. Actually I think some cultures did recognize gay unions, anyone have data on that?

scigirl

GeoTheo posts:
Then later states,
From this sentence, I'm assuming that if you had the power, you would vote (or elect a politician that would vote) "no" on allowing gay marriages. Am I correct in this assumption?

Choosing to remain celibate until marriage was your right. Forcing others to follow this tenet would be wrong - especially if the ONLY argument you could come up with is a religious, and not a secular one.

scigirl