THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Greetings Radorth,

Per your request, I have moved my response to your post on the SL&S thread to here. I have chopped off the irrelevant parts, and also some of the more extreme sarcasm, and appologize for any offense taken. Since this is my first interaction with you, I shall endeavour to treat you with civility. I humbly request the same from you.

Originally posted by Radorth:
"Those who supposedy "fall away" permanently only do so for two or perhaps three reasons

1. They were never really born again, never really knew God as he is, and were "raised" Christian. You hear this all the time. They say "I was raised Christian" as if that is enough. Sorry but "You must be born again" even if you have the whole Bible memorized.

2. They were born again, but were taught legalistic nonsense, become spiritually thirsty and leave their church in search of the spiritual reality they once felt.

3. Some may be Christians but are attracted by earthly lusts and cares. These are saved, but will suffer in this life, which suffering usually brings them back."
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IMHO, Radorth, all of your examples, either:
A. Put the blame on B.G, for her loss of faith or,
B. Put the blame on someone else, such as family, Church, pastors, "legalists", {one of your favourite bogeymen, I see}, et al. No other possibilities are even considered.

YOU ARE WRONG, RADORTH

However, let us, for the sake of conversation, give your proposition far more merit than I believe it actually deserves, and analyze it.

In stating the reasons people "fall away'from Xtianity, you made the following remarkable statement:

"Those who supposedy "fall away" permanently only do so for two or perhaps three reasons"

No "IMHO", or, "in my experience", but a concrete statement of fact. Moreover, not only are these reasons seemingly set in stone, they are the only reasons {emphasis mine} why anyone could possibly fall away from "The Truth".

If you an demonstrate hard, verifiable evidence that this is in fact the case, I must assume that you:

A. Have amzing mind reading powers {Hopefully not, since nost orthodox Christians think they come from Satan, right?}, or,

B. God has taken to whispering in your ear on a regular basis.

Since you have made such an astounding claim, a positive assertion no less, it is incumbent upon you to share this evidence with us unsaved heathens, that we might come to {The Truth" {TM}.

What, no evidence?

Then, may I most humbly restate my earlier statement, namely:

YOU ARE WRONG, RADORTH

You are attempting to delegitamize B.G's crisis of faith by redefining the word "loss of faith" in a way that you feel eliminates difficult questions, much like the Artificial construct of "Liar, Lunatic, or Lord" used by appologists to narrow the options available to skeptics. Your claim of "once a Christian, always a Christian" is great rhetoric, but bereft of any veracity.

The following options are just as likely as yours:
1. God does not exist.

2. The Christians are wrong about God, and He is very happy another soul has left Christianity.

3. God, since He isn't so narcissistic and insecure that He would require slobbering worship from puny humans, doesn't care if people believe in Him or not at all.

4. God just wanted B.G tothink she was saved, just to toy with her mind.

5. God has predestined her to Hell, and has given her over to her unbelief.

If your definition of a Christian is one who accepts the Nicene Creed, and believes in the Dvinity and Lordship of Jesus Christ, than there are thousands of ex Christians, including many on this board. Since you claim to not be able to read the hearts of any man, consistency demands that you also drop this facade of absolute knowledge that every X-Christian was never a real one to begin with, or that they simply got affiliated with a doctrinally unsound, or legalistic denomination. This is simply not the case.

Allow me, then to show a more accurate representation of what happened {though, of course, this is only my humble opinion!} .

B.G was taken in by Christian dogma. She bought the whole concept of a just God and sinful man hook line, and sinker. She may very well have viewed herself as a lost, Hell bound wretch, in desperate need of a Saviour. She wanted desperately to know that God was there, looking out for her. She prayed. And prayed. She did everything possible to get a response, to know that she had assurance of eternal bliss.

She heard no voices, saw no miracles, felt no "feelings" that couldn't be explained as wishful thinking.

The grisly torments of Hell described to her by fellow Christians terrified her, while the promise of a God who answered prayers intrigued her. As time went on, she realised that the second part just wasn't happening. She realized the "If any 2 ask in my name, it shall be done" quote from the Bible was pure, unadulerated horseshit.

If the Bible was wrong about that, was it wrong about Hell, too?

How about God Himself? Shouldn't He care that one of His Children is having serious doubts about Him? Is God so proud that He can't bend the rules even a little, and communicate in a tangible way with someone who is so desperate to know and serve Him?

Her doubts terrified her. Noone of faith that I've ever known, including myself, ever sets out to prove their own beliefs wrong. It goes against everything they've been taught, everything they hold precious. If what you say is true, and God remains with a Christian no matter what, there would be no X-Christians, Radorth.

It is simply inconcievable, with the stakes so high, that God would permit one of His children to leave the fold, since that would force Him to torture her for all eternity.

I eagerly await your reply.
Respect,
The Legendary HQB, Esq

Ab_Normal

I am not a card-carrying Humanist, but it is my understanding of their philosophical stance that it is based on the "intrinsic worth of each person". Any Humanists here who can straighten me on this?

I can state with certainty that the idea of the intrinsic worth of humanity is the core of my personal beliefs. I strive to make the world a better place - not that I much succeed - because I view each human life as an irreplaceable, unrepeatable, precious thing. With no afterlife, it is incumbent on me to make this one life the best I can for those around me.

[/sidetrack]

HelenM

I can think immediately of two people whose claim to have been a Christian I find hard to refute based on what they told me. One I 'cyber-met' here and we have interacted here and on a Christian board a fair amount; the other I met in real life one time and talked to for a while about his life. The other is now a Unitarian minister but went through an Assemblies of God seminary before he became a Unitarian later in life.

Those are the two who immediately come to mind. I've yet to hear an explanation from a Christian which really fits their evident experience. They aren't miserable now - as they are supposed to be according to many Christians who think they must be tormented in their souls by their departure from God - and I can't see a material difference between them and other people who never were Christians. So it's hard to imagine God taking them to heaven and sending other people with the same view of God, to hell. One can theorize some significantly different inner reality between these ex-Christians and never-Christians but speaking for myself, if there is, I don't see it manifesting.

I'm just being honest. I don't see the sense in trying to force people into some theological 'box' of this or that Christian group, when it really doesn't seem to fit their experience. I'd rather go with what's real in people's lives than what I might speculate based on some theology or other. With my diagnosis I can't afford to ignore reality, so it seems to me.

And if other people here see what I've said as arguments for atheism and wonder why I don't follow them through to their logical conclusion, well, feel free to wonder...maybe it's because I believe there's more to life than logic

Helen

NFLP

It seems to me that Radorth is trying to conceal from God that he has his own doubts.

Radorth,
As you flail-about like a drowning man desperately grasping for the life-preserver of God's voice, do you ever hear the words "Oh, just shut up!"?

Be still and know...

seebs

I just don't get it; what benefit does it produce to try to retroactively say that someone was "never" a true Christian? Seems to me that's awfully arrogant.

beyelzu

seebs,

the benefit is pretty obvious.

radforth gets to rejoice that he is a True Christian tm. and that us poor unbelievers go to hell. plus there is that whole retribution angle. "you dont believe anymore? well you werent a true christian anyway. and you get to burn in hell."

its also just easier to assume that someone never ruly believed than that they did and turned away from The Truth tm

its easier to ignore your own doubts if you demonize the poeple who have changed their mind.

Yellum Notnef

I`m pretty sure that you`re a much older crank than I.

And btw,I myself was a Christian. I went through the whole Roman Catholic ritual from birth until my early teens. I went to church,said the prayers,got the oil on my head,owned and read a bible,sported the rosary beads and belived the whole bit about Jesus and the rest of the celestial Christian superheroes.

I certainly would have called myself a Christian and was quite happy about it. I can even remember bragging about how MY name was in the bible but my little brothers name wasn`t.

As I got older I found that all the Christian "facts" I was taught as a child had little or no basis in reality and that the trouble caused by religion in general far outweighs the sense of comfort and security people get from it.

seebs

Well, that doesn't look like a benefit to *me*. Doubts are my mind's way of reminding me there's more to be learned.

beyelzu

seebs,

sometimes i wonder why you bother to compare yourself to hardliners like radorth. you arent the same species.

seebs

Well, most importantly, because I have not yet actually proven their beliefs wrong, and I try to remember to always consider and study any position, in the hopes that, even if it's false, I will learn something in the process.