Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bait · 03-12-2002, 12:46 PM

Hello Daemon,
Thank you for posting in a civil manner. Let me try to better explain, but like I said�I was not intending to get into a debate about this.

Originally posted by Bait:
As to the first question, God did not, and does not, want mankind to suffer as we do.

Daemon said: This is not a viable stance in most forms of Christianity that I have heard of, considering God is alleged to be omnipotent. Given that, anything that exists is God's will. If God did not want suffering, it would not exist.

My response: Your using mans logic to try to explain spiritual things. My position is exactly what the Bible says, and most Christian churches teach. Anything that exists is not necessarily God�s will, we humans go against his will all of the time. That is why Jesus came to this earth, to put in place the things necessary to eliminate suffering that we brought on by listening to Lucifer. Yes, God is omnipotent, in that is he has unlimited authority and power. But he also is just and usually abides by his own laws, and always abides by his promises. One promise was to give us a free will, the ability to choose. We made a poor choice, and suffer because of it. His plan is to eliminate that suffering. But by and according to his plan, and his timing, not ours. Remember that he doesn�t necessarily look on time as we do.

You also forget that the Bible says we are also spiritual beings. This life, Christians believe, is only a very small part of the total life experience. Death is meaningless to us, because we believe that life does not stop there, but goes on. Spiritual death, on the other hand, to us is the more horrid, the worse suffering. And we are the ones who choose which we want.

quote:

Choice is an absolute gift God has given us, would you rather be robots?

Daemon said: Yes. If God exists, free will is no blessing.

My response: Kinda depends on your point of view doesn�t it? Free will can be a great blessing, because then we can be truly God�s children. Would you want your own children to just parrot you�or would you rather they develop their own personality, their own style? God wants us to be�us.

quote:

Why is he taking so long? Simple, so both the angels and man can see the consequences of rebelling against man.

The irony is, of course, that us relatively non-religious folks are living longer, healthier lives today than ever before. So the consequences of "rebelling against God" is... health?

No, the consequences here on earth is lack of peace, lack of comfort, lack of direction. One can be healthy, but not happy. Eternally the consequences is spiritual death, total separation from God.

quote:

Why would God have his people kill the societies mentioned in the Bible? Because they were rebelling against God to such an extent, that there could be no more hope for them. They were totally in Lucifers camp, totally anti-God, vile and hurtful. So they were cleansed from the earth, removed, and the land given to those who did follow God. If a cancerous lump is found in a womans breast...do not the doctors remove it (either the lump or the breast) in order to save the person's life?

Daemon said: Ah, so humanity--at least humanity you dislike--is a cancer to be purged. Congratulations, you're one step away from being a monster.

My response: Not humanity I dislike, (I had nothing to do with it) �but I�m sorry if that is the way it reads. Maybe I did a really bad analogy, and if that is the case, I apologize. What are we doing right now to the taliban, how are we handling the terrorist? (we meaning the USA and the UN forces). Are we not attacking�killing them, trying to remove the possibility of them attacking and killing us, and innocents again? Do we not capture and imprison them? Does that make us monsters, or righteous? Are we wrong in going after them? So should we let them continue indiscriminately kill people? The Bible seems to indicate that those tribes that the Hebrews wiped out in the old testament, were along those lines or worse than the terrorists, who perhaps even practiced human sacrifice, and the like, (I don�t know that part for sure, but it was common practice in those days, in that area). God can see what�s in peoples hearts and minds, and he was the one who made the judgement. Just like those terrorists, who have been so brainwashed that they would willingly attach a bomb and commit suicide and killing innocents, on purpose, for their cause, the only way to totally stop them is to eliminate them, by either death or imprisonment. Reason does not work with them. If those tribes of old were like that, then yes, they would be a cancer on society, just like the terrorists are today. This can either be done by imprisonment,or death...correct? If they chose to not surrender, rather they choose to continue to fight, what other choices would there be? Do we just let them go so they can kill some more? Or are we justified then to eliminate the problem�even to kill them? Are THEY not the monsters, and not us? So if the same situation occurred then (in the Bible), would not God be justified in ordering their destruction as well? Where is this morally wrong? Where is it morally wrong to eliminate evil of this nature?

quote:

I personally believe God does answer prayer...every time you sincerely pray.

Daemon said: From personal experience, I can attest that this is incorrect.

My response: Sorry you feel that way. I do not know what you were praying for, or why. Perhaps he did answer�only he said no. Perhaps you were not listening close enough. I don�t know enough of the situations you are talking about, so I really cannot dispute you. I know from personal experience that he always has answered my prayers. Sometimes I may not like his answer, but in the long run, it has always seemed to worked out for the good, at least for me.

quote:

God is actually a loving God, but make no mistake, he can be a fearsome God of war when needs be. He's also absolute justice.

Daemon said: Can you spot the contradiction here?

My response: Why do you think there is a contradiction? Do you give EVERYTHING to your kids they ask for? Do you not, at times, punish them in some manner, for something they did wrong? Do you never correct them? Does that/would that mean you do not love them? Would you defend your family against someone or thing trying to destroy them? Would you go to war for your country? Does that mean you do not love your family?

You might then say then something about a child getting killed by getting run over. The Bible teaches that he is then in heaven�with God, no pain, no suffering, happy, taken care of. If you do not believe there is anything after death�I can see where this could be, or seem terrible, and God would seem irresponsible, not much of a parent. I cannot see into the future, but I believe God can. He may have seen something far worse for the child, and removed him from that possibility, no one knows, or will know until they join him. I believe that it�s no different than if we see a child about to stick something into a light socket�we remove him to another room. Think of heaven as another room in life. Death is then no longer something to be feared, it's just a relocation.

quote:

Finally, heaven is not the same boring thing everyday, as someone suggested. Imagine the ability to visit anywhere in the Universe, anytime you want. If we have so much stimulation here, can you not imagine the amount you can have in a place with no limits? But there, there is no pain and suffering...because there everyone, and everything follows Gods laws, as they are intended to be.

Daemon said: You present a decidedly unbiblical view of heaven. I suggest you try reading the Bible.

My response: Why do you say that? What is unbiblical about it? The Bible describes a city, a mansion to live in. It also describes a creek, a river, good fruit, trees, no pain, no suffering, tears are wiped away, peace. It says all knowledge will be available to you, and you will understand all things. But imagine this, that time has no meaning. You and some of the others think of how our lives are now�one day after another, in a string. The Bible doesn�t exactly say this, but imagine time as a globe, and where you are in time is just the matter of where you are on the globe. If time doesn�t have a meaning, then would you really realize how much time has passed? I�m about 50ish�but I feel the same as when I was 20�.or 16 for that matter. A bit smarter, wiser perhaps�but I still think, and feel no different (other than the usual aches). I�m still me in other words. Do I want to be here tomorrow? How about a minute from now? Of course I do. So at what point would you want to quit? Especially if you do not realize the passage of time. The only reason we realize it, is because we know about our mortality. Children do not have any concept of death, or time for that matter�until someone tells them of it, or they see it somewhere for themselves. I think that is the way it will be in heaven. Furthest thing from being boring (which would be a type of suffering�would it not?)
quote:

His laws are actually summed up in two...love God, and love and treat everyone else like you want to be loved and treated.

Daemon said: ...unless, of course, that someone else is a cancerous mass in God's creation. Then you have every right to kill, rape, or torture them. Hooray!

My response: Com�on Daemon, not fair. For one, I said nothing (nor does the Bible) that says it�s ok to rape and torture. Those too are evils. As to the killing, see my statement above. Killing for the sake of killing is also an evil. But sometimes it�s justified to kill to eliminate evil, evils that are recognized world wide, by virtually every religion, such as rape and torture, and mass murder. The allies in WWII were justified to fight and kill against the evils of the Nazi�s...yes? We�re justified right now to fight, and kill the terrorists who indiscriminately killed thousands of innocents, at least those who persist with the evil, and do not surrender...right? So how is that morally repugnant, to fight evil?

Daemon says: Ron, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and I'm sure you mean well, but I find your religion to be morally repugnant. I doubt you even live by the tenets of your own religion; most Christians don't, thankfully.

My reply: Thank you for the compliment, and I�m sorry you feel that way (about my religion being repugnant). I think though some of you reasons was perhaps due to an honest misunderstanding caused by a tone, or my poorly worded previous post that was not meant the way it appears to be interpreted. But I respect your right to feel that way. Thank you for treating me with respect in your responses. I hope I cleared up some of the misunderstanding with this post.

Bests,
Ron

Hondo · 03-12-2002, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by bait to Hamuri

Quote:

posted March 12, 2002 08:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What I see perhaps most is the argument of "if there is God, why, or how can he be so cruel to allow all of the pain and suffering? Also, why or how could he of commanded the total destuction of the many societies that he did?

From this Christians point of view:

Hard questions, I admit. But there are answers. As to the first question, God did not, and does not, want mankind to suffer as we do. First off, one has to remember that God created first his angels, his servants, but gave them a free will, meaning they can choose right from wrong. He also made them immortal. His most powerful and beautiful angel named Lucifer decided that he wanted to, and thought he was powerful enough, to take over, put himself above God. He fought against God and lost.
God then created man, in his own image, also giving him free will to choose, but had not yet allowed him to be immortal (though it was available). Man choose to rebel against God, and align himself with God's fallen Angel Lucifer when Adam & Eve disobeyed God's command. This became like a sickness to man, and all except three men caught the desease. These three were Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus (who we believe is God himself, come down in the person of man). Enoch and Elijah never died, but were taken straight to heaven.

Lucifer, being angry that God has kicked him out of heaven, is on (around/in) the earth, is trying to hurt God by hurting the ones God loves most...man. Since God's law says the penalty for the treason (rebelling against) against God is death, the law (originally made for his angels)came into play against man as well. So God came down in the form of a man, and paid that price so we could be free of that punishment. The price had to be paid by an innocent, one who had not caught the desease of sin...otherwise the debt would have been owed by him too.

Do Xtians actually read the Bible, or is this stuff just made up as you go. According to the O.T. God is indeed the creator of everything, including evil. Try the following from the KJV

Deuteronomy 30:15 states:
See, I [God] have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.

Isaiah 45:7:
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

That darned O.T. really creates some major problems for the uninformed. Have many Xtians ever stopped to wonder why the Jews were never brought into the Xtian fold. (thanks to Rabbi Singer)

Hondo

Bait · 03-12-2002, 12:52 PM

Hello mad,
The point would be that you wouldn't want to escape. Just like the experience of general anesthesia, where nothing existed...did you realize the time that had passed? Like that, you would not realize the passing of time...but you would have experiences. I've sometimes gotten really into a book, or talked to a friend. Next thing I know, dawn appears, and hours have gone by...without me realizing it. That's about the best analogy I can think of at the moment.
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad as Hell:
The idea of there not being a loving god does not
bother me but the idea of dying and becoming non-existent is impossible for the emotional part of my mind to get a handle on. Rationally I do get it and see no evidence whatsoever that there is anything that remains once we die. Still I have small moments of panic. What helps me is the idea that it is just the same state as before I was born(as someone said before). I try to look at it as a permanent state of general anesthesia which I have experienced twice. Nothing existed while I was under, including ME. I think of it as a temporary state of brain death.
On the other hand(getting a little off the subject), I would not want to become immortal if it meant that I could never escape from existence if I wanted to. If someone told me today that I could live forever but had no option of dying once I made the choice, I don't think I would take it.

Bait · 03-12-2002, 01:00 PM

SharonDee,
I apologize if that is the way my post seemed. If that was the case, then I owe ReasonableDoubt an apology too, and he has it if he is reading this. It was not meant that way. My post to Daemon, I hope, better says it. "Those people had it coming" attitude would better be applied to the terrorists, not the WTC people that died. Even then, only the ones that continued, and did not give up - did not repent (the Bible calls it repenting, literally meaning turning away from an action). I believe very much (and the bible promotes) forgiveness, after repenting. I took the Biblical accounts as meaning those people would not repent of their ways.
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by SharonDee:
Bait, I think ReasonableDoubt knows that you weren't justifying 9/11. What you were justifying, though, was the attitude ("those people had it coming!") that makes atrocities like the WTC happen.

That it's a story in an ancient book and not a story from the latest headlines makes no difference in the point made.

Bait · 03-12-2002, 01:13 PM

ReasonableDoubt;
Fine, if that is what you wish to believe of us Christians, and God, the Jews, etc. ...it's your right, go for it. That is not what I meant but you are entitled to your opinion. But by the same reasoning, your reasoning then, we of the USA, and of the UN forces are wrong to go after those terrorists...we should let them alone to do, to kill whoever, whatever, whenever. So at this point, we'll agree to disagree.
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by ReasonableDoubt:


Pay particular attention to the part about killing "every male among the little ones." There's nothing quite like being thorough. The good news is this 'God-given' orgy of barbarism is myth. The bad news is that there are folks who can, have, and will justify anything once convinced that it is God's will.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

Bait · 03-12-2002, 01:18 PM

Jerry,
I'm glad you've had good experiences with some of "us" Christians. In my post, I was not trying to come off as self rightous, and was really trying not to sound mean spirited, or rude. All I was trying to do was explain some of my faith, because there seemed to be some mispreceptions. I really did not want, nor was looking for a fight.
Bests to you sir,
Ron

Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Smith:
This is as good a thread as any I could find to "come out" about a couple of things in.

Those of you who know me know that I am a committed atheist. BUT....

1) I am seduced by Gospel Music. Especially when it is the Statler Brothers performing. "Just a little walk with Jesus" really turns me on.

2) There is something in Jack Kerouac's Buddhism and my grandparents' hillbilly folk religion that is attractive. Practitioners and believers are truly and fundamentally convinced that there are certain practices and guidlines, which if adhered to strictly, make life much sweeter.

With Kerouac, it was daily meditation, with Grandad, it was the work ethic. Maybe these religions seem more attractive (if no more true) because I am removed from them.

I do try to sing like the Statler Brothers (even though I can't). I also dedicate myself to following my own system of ethics as strictly as possible like Grandad did. There is satisfaction to be had from there.

A lot of people here find most conservative Christians to be rude, mean-spirited and self-righteous. I come from a family of conservative (evangelical) Christians, and while I most definitely think they are wrong, they are also some of the best people I know. They are certainly not self-righteous or mean-sprited, and they love me no less knowing that I am an atheist than they did when I was a child and still nominally Christian.

Bait · 03-12-2002, 01:32 PM

Folks, please,
Really I meant it, I was not trying to start anything, not to debate, nor get into a fight, nor to convert. I've already heard your arguments against...said so right up front. I said you can come up with a hundred reasons against...ok, fine, I accept that. I was just expressing an opinion, trying to explain what, or how I believe, to people I thought were willing to listen a little. I did not intend to offend, sorry if I did. You do not have to believe as I do, I'm not asking you to...really. I'm not putting you down if you do not believe either, that's your choice, and you have every right to it. I'm not trying to defend anything, at least that was not my original intention. You interpret the Bible your way...ok? I'll interpret it my way.
I'll just quietly bow out...and leave this thread alone, and leave you in peace. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />
Ron

John Page · 03-12-2002, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
Jerry,
I'm glad you've had good experiences with some of "us" Christians.....

Bait:

What would be your advice for telling a good theist from a bad theist?

Jayhawker Soule · 03-12-2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bait:
ReasonableDoubt;
But by the same reasoning, your reasoning then, we of the USA, and of the UN forces are wrong to go after those terrorists...we should let them alone to do, to kill whoever, whatever, whenever.
Ron

No. But we would be wrong to emulate your God by insisting on maximum collateral damage while setting aside some 32,000 virgins to be carted off as booty (see Num 31:18).

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]

uhcord · 03-12-2002, 02:01 PM

If god is omnipotent and omniscient, wouldn't he have known all the stuff that happened would happen if created beings with freewill?

Why would he go create something to 'test' it, when he already knew what would happen?

He would of already known lucifer was going to rebel.

He would of already known that man was going to choose to rebel agianst him.

He would of already known that giving his creations 'freewill' would result in much pain
and death.

*Edit: He would of already known which men and which angels would remain on his side, and thus just could've created the ones that would remain on his said and still give those ones freewill.

He would of known every cause of all his actions.

Funny silly

Oh, I forgot, logic is not important.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]

03-12-2002, 02:01 PM	#50
uhcord Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Somewhere Posts: 1,158	If god is omnipotent and omniscient, wouldn't he have known all the stuff that happened would happen if created beings with freewill? Why would he go create something to 'test' it, when he already knew what would happen? He would of already known lucifer was going to rebel. He would of already known that man was going to choose to rebel agianst him. He would of already known that giving his creations 'freewill' would result in much pain and death. Edit: He would of already known which men and which angels would remain on his side, and thus just could've created the ones that would remain on his said and still give those ones freewill. He would of known every* cause of all his actions. Funny silly Oh, I forgot, logic is not important. [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ] [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: vonmeth ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-12-2002, 12:46 PM	#41
Bait Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 119	Hello Daemon, Thank you for posting in a civil manner. Let me try to better explain, but like I said�I was not intending to get into a debate about this. Originally posted by Bait: As to the first question, God did not, and does not, want mankind to suffer as we do. Daemon said: This is not a viable stance in most forms of Christianity that I have heard of, considering God is alleged to be omnipotent. Given that, anything that exists is God's will. If God did not want suffering, it would not exist. My response: Your using mans logic to try to explain spiritual things. My position is exactly what the Bible says, and most Christian churches teach. Anything that exists is not necessarily God�s will, we humans go against his will all of the time. That is why Jesus came to this earth, to put in place the things necessary to eliminate suffering that we brought on by listening to Lucifer. Yes, God is omnipotent, in that is he has unlimited authority and power. But he also is just and usually abides by his own laws, and always abides by his promises. One promise was to give us a free will, the ability to choose. We made a poor choice, and suffer because of it. His plan is to eliminate that suffering. But by and according to his plan, and his timing, not ours. Remember that he doesn�t necessarily look on time as we do. You also forget that the Bible says we are also spiritual beings. This life, Christians believe, is only a very small part of the total life experience. Death is meaningless to us, because we believe that life does not stop there, but goes on. Spiritual death, on the other hand, to us is the more horrid, the worse suffering. And we are the ones who choose which we want. quote: Choice is an absolute gift God has given us, would you rather be robots? Daemon said: Yes. If God exists, free will is no blessing. My response: Kinda depends on your point of view doesn�t it? Free will can be a great blessing, because then we can be truly God�s children. Would you want your own children to just parrot you�or would you rather they develop their own personality, their own style? God wants us to be�us. quote: Why is he taking so long? Simple, so both the angels and man can see the consequences of rebelling against man. The irony is, of course, that us relatively non-religious folks are living longer, healthier lives today than ever before. So the consequences of "rebelling against God" is... health? No, the consequences here on earth is lack of peace, lack of comfort, lack of direction. One can be healthy, but not happy. Eternally the consequences is spiritual death, total separation from God. quote: Why would God have his people kill the societies mentioned in the Bible? Because they were rebelling against God to such an extent, that there could be no more hope for them. They were totally in Lucifers camp, totally anti-God, vile and hurtful. So they were cleansed from the earth, removed, and the land given to those who did follow God. If a cancerous lump is found in a womans breast...do not the doctors remove it (either the lump or the breast) in order to save the person's life? Daemon said: Ah, so humanity--at least humanity you dislike--is a cancer to be purged. Congratulations, you're one step away from being a monster. My response: Not humanity I dislike, (I had nothing to do with it) �but I�m sorry if that is the way it reads. Maybe I did a really bad analogy, and if that is the case, I apologize. What are we doing right now to the taliban, how are we handling the terrorist? (we meaning the USA and the UN forces). Are we not attacking�killing them, trying to remove the possibility of them attacking and killing us, and innocents again? Do we not capture and imprison them? Does that make us monsters, or righteous? Are we wrong in going after them? So should we let them continue indiscriminately kill people? The Bible seems to indicate that those tribes that the Hebrews wiped out in the old testament, were along those lines or worse than the terrorists, who perhaps even practiced human sacrifice, and the like, (I don�t know that part for sure, but it was common practice in those days, in that area). God can see what�s in peoples hearts and minds, and he was the one who made the judgement. Just like those terrorists, who have been so brainwashed that they would willingly attach a bomb and commit suicide and killing innocents, on purpose, for their cause, the only way to totally stop them is to eliminate them, by either death or imprisonment. Reason does not work with them. If those tribes of old were like that, then yes, they would be a cancer on society, just like the terrorists are today. This can either be done by imprisonment,or death...correct? If they chose to not surrender, rather they choose to continue to fight, what other choices would there be? Do we just let them go so they can kill some more? Or are we justified then to eliminate the problem�even to kill them? Are THEY not the monsters, and not us? So if the same situation occurred then (in the Bible), would not God be justified in ordering their destruction as well? Where is this morally wrong? Where is it morally wrong to eliminate evil of this nature? quote: I personally believe God does answer prayer...every time you sincerely pray. Daemon said: From personal experience, I can attest that this is incorrect. My response: Sorry you feel that way. I do not know what you were praying for, or why. Perhaps he did answer�only he said no. Perhaps you were not listening close enough. I don�t know enough of the situations you are talking about, so I really cannot dispute you. I know from personal experience that he always has answered my prayers. Sometimes I may not like his answer, but in the long run, it has always seemed to worked out for the good, at least for me. quote: God is actually a loving God, but make no mistake, he can be a fearsome God of war when needs be. He's also absolute justice. Daemon said: Can you spot the contradiction here? My response: Why do you think there is a contradiction? Do you give EVERYTHING to your kids they ask for? Do you not, at times, punish them in some manner, for something they did wrong? Do you never correct them? Does that/would that mean you do not love them? Would you defend your family against someone or thing trying to destroy them? Would you go to war for your country? Does that mean you do not love your family? You might then say then something about a child getting killed by getting run over. The Bible teaches that he is then in heaven�with God, no pain, no suffering, happy, taken care of. If you do not believe there is anything after death�I can see where this could be, or seem terrible, and God would seem irresponsible, not much of a parent. I cannot see into the future, but I believe God can. He may have seen something far worse for the child, and removed him from that possibility, no one knows, or will know until they join him. I believe that it�s no different than if we see a child about to stick something into a light socket�we remove him to another room. Think of heaven as another room in life. Death is then no longer something to be feared, it's just a relocation. quote: Finally, heaven is not the same boring thing everyday, as someone suggested. Imagine the ability to visit anywhere in the Universe, anytime you want. If we have so much stimulation here, can you not imagine the amount you can have in a place with no limits? But there, there is no pain and suffering...because there everyone, and everything follows Gods laws, as they are intended to be. Daemon said: You present a decidedly unbiblical view of heaven. I suggest you try reading the Bible. My response: Why do you say that? What is unbiblical about it? The Bible describes a city, a mansion to live in. It also describes a creek, a river, good fruit, trees, no pain, no suffering, tears are wiped away, peace. It says all knowledge will be available to you, and you will understand all things. But imagine this, that time has no meaning. You and some of the others think of how our lives are now�one day after another, in a string. The Bible doesn�t exactly say this, but imagine time as a globe, and where you are in time is just the matter of where you are on the globe. If time doesn�t have a meaning, then would you really realize how much time has passed? I�m about 50ish�but I feel the same as when I was 20�.or 16 for that matter. A bit smarter, wiser perhaps�but I still think, and feel no different (other than the usual aches). I�m still me in other words. Do I want to be here tomorrow? How about a minute from now? Of course I do. So at what point would you want to quit? Especially if you do not realize the passage of time. The only reason we realize it, is because we know about our mortality. Children do not have any concept of death, or time for that matter�until someone tells them of it, or they see it somewhere for themselves. I think that is the way it will be in heaven. Furthest thing from being boring (which would be a type of suffering�would it not?) quote: His laws are actually summed up in two...love God, and love and treat everyone else like you want to be loved and treated. Daemon said: ...unless, of course, that someone else is a cancerous mass in God's creation. Then you have every right to kill, rape, or torture them. Hooray! My response: Com�on Daemon, not fair. For one, I said nothing (nor does the Bible) that says it�s ok to rape and torture. Those too are evils. As to the killing, see my statement above. Killing for the sake of killing is also an evil. But sometimes it�s justified to kill to eliminate evil, evils that are recognized world wide, by virtually every religion, such as rape and torture, and mass murder. The allies in WWII were justified to fight and kill against the evils of the Nazi�s...yes? We�re justified right now to fight, and kill the terrorists who indiscriminately killed thousands of innocents, at least those who persist with the evil, and do not surrender...right? So how is that morally repugnant, to fight evil? Daemon says: Ron, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and I'm sure you mean well, but I find your religion to be morally repugnant. I doubt you even live by the tenets of your own religion; most Christians don't, thankfully. My reply: Thank you for the compliment, and I�m sorry you feel that way (about my religion being repugnant). I think though some of you reasons was perhaps due to an honest misunderstanding caused by a tone, or my poorly worded previous post that was not meant the way it appears to be interpreted. But I respect your right to feel that way. Thank you for treating me with respect in your responses. I hope I cleared up some of the misunderstanding with this post. Bests, Ron

03-12-2002, 01:32 PM	#47
Bait Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 119	Folks, please, Really I meant it, I was not trying to start anything, not to debate, nor get into a fight, nor to convert. I've already heard your arguments against...said so right up front. I said you can come up with a hundred reasons against...ok, fine, I accept that. I was just expressing an opinion, trying to explain what, or how I believe, to people I thought were willing to listen a little. I did not intend to offend, sorry if I did. You do not have to believe as I do, I'm not asking you to...really. I'm not putting you down if you do not believe either, that's your choice, and you have every right to it. I'm not trying to defend anything, at least that was not my original intention. You interpret the Bible your way...ok? I'll interpret it my way. I'll just quietly bow out...and leave this thread alone, and leave you in peace. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> Ron

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.