Freethought & Rationalism Archive

lpetrich · 02-24-2003, 10:31 PM

(Diana on Magus55's "Snowstorm Defense"...)

Something like the Gish Gallop, a debate tactic used by creationist Duane Gish.

lpetrich · 02-24-2003, 10:40 PM

Does this mean that Magus55 will be gone?

And saying that the Muslim Paradise is a whorehouse is technically inaccurate. All those ladies of the Muslim Paradise are extra wives that the men will get -- and when a man arrives in Paradise, he will celebrate his wedding to those ladies. So if one's male, one will get to live something like some of the kings in the Bible, with their many wives.

Jack the Bodiless · 02-25-2003, 01:28 AM

Quote:

I can point out errors in alot of scripture and show studies on the accuracy of the Bible compared to other writings and the mathematical probabilities of such claims but i guess it does take an openess and willingness to want to find a reason to believe in God over atheism.

No, what it takes is the ability to read each claim as the author stated it, determine if there is actual evidence indicating the truth or falsehood of the claim, and then calculate probabilities.

Quote:

And if muslims turn out to be right? As iv'e said i'd rather be in Hell based on their attitudes towards women today, those who oppose Islam and the whore-house they call Paradise. And Islam has even more contradictions than Christianity supposedly does and alot of those iv'e yet to see how to explain rationally.

I have yet to see a list of Islamic contradictions that's anywhere near as long as the lists of Christian contradictions that I've seen. Islam recognizes that the Old and New Testaments are "corrupt", meaning that they don't have to address any of the problems therein. That leaves only the Koran, a book written at a specific point in history, and therefore largely self-consistent.

Vorkosigan · 02-25-2003, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Anyway, thanks for discussion - ill do some research and approach on a simpler scale next time.

Thanks Mag! We don't mind. But speaking frankly, it would be hard to get simpler than borrowing arguments from CARM and Josh McDowell. Why not try to get a richer and more complex understanding of the issues? Try Raymond Brown's Introduction to the New Testament for starters. It is a classic work read by everyone in the field, and as a conservative Catholic priest, has the stamp of approval of mainstream scholarship. But dare I dream, and ask you to read some of the stuff on the Suggest Readings sticky located at the head of this forum?

Vorkosigan

Kassiana · 02-25-2003, 05:24 AM

Magus:
when you find out Christians are right and your stupid free-thinking....

Kass:
The same thing that will happen when you find out that Ojuice is right and the GraecoRoman Gods exist and yours doesn't.

Heya JTV. Oh, no. I was very, very careful with my description on here so that both Magus and atheist/agnostic would have a harder time picking at it.

Luiseach · 02-25-2003, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jobar
Bada-bump bump bump
Another one bites the dust!

LMAO!

Sorry, but this really did make me laugh out loud.

Now the tune'll be in my head all day.

lol

gcameron · 02-25-2003, 07:30 AM

Quote:

But again, when you find out Christians are right and your stupid free-thinking individualism - lets express ourself and deny anything else attitudes are shoved in your face by God himself - try not to kick yourself too hard - there will be enough pain in Hell for you. God has the final say not you - deny Him all you want - you will be judged.

Once again the essence of the thing is laid bare.

Raw. Naked. Force.

Confirming all the direst claims of the darkest nihilists.

I'd rather live in a universe with no moral structure, than one in which the underlying moral structure is set by a vindictive monster.

Magus, if it turns out you were correct, I hope you enjoy gloating that millions of good and honest and serious and intelligent individuals are being eternally tortured because of their opinion.

Eudaimonist · 02-25-2003, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gcameron
Once again the essence of the thing is laid bare.

Raw. Naked. Force.

Confirming all the direst claims of the darkest nihilists.

Notice how faith and force seem to go together, and how he attacks "free-thinking individualism".

I'm reminded of Ayn Rand's essay Faith and Force: The Destroyers of the Modern World, where she argues that faith and force naturally go together, and that reason and freedom is the alternative.

02-25-2003, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Diana
It's more like when you walk into a stable that hasn't been shoveled out for a month, your initial reaction is to stand there with the shovel, frozen, unsure where to begin. Your lack of movement has nothing to do with a lack of horseshit. And if there's enough horseshit, you consider the rationality of just setting fire to the place instead.

That is a totally brilliant simile.

:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Mageth · 02-25-2003, 10:11 AM

Magus:

The scripture mentioned on Adam - i meant spiritual death but didn't think mentioning that would be any more meaningful than what I said - that was my intented point though.

Read your original statement:

God is saying when he eats the tree - he will no longer live for eternity ( as in be immortal) - He is saying when you eat from the tree, you bring in the first sin and your body will now age and die.

No mention, even hint, of spiritual death there.

And while i'll be judged too - Jesus paid for my sins so ill be judged not guilty when i stand before Him.

If you didn't understand the point I was making (which, from your response, I don't think you did), then you'd better double-check your "get out of jail free" card. It may not be valid.

I'd advise you to read Matthew 7:16-23, for a start, and think about your previous post that I was referring to.

02-24-2003, 10:31 PM	#121
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Re: The Snowstorm Defense (Diana on Magus55's "Snowstorm Defense"...) Something like the Gish Gallop, a debate tactic used by creationist Duane Gish.

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02-24-2003, 10:40 PM	#122
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Does this mean that Magus55 will be gone? And saying that the Muslim Paradise is a whorehouse is technically inaccurate. All those ladies of the Muslim Paradise are extra wives that the men will get -- and when a man arrives in Paradise, he will celebrate his wedding to those ladies. So if one's male, one will get to live something like some of the kings in the Bible, with their many wives.

02-25-2003, 05:24 AM	#125
Kassiana Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: USA Posts: 5,046	Magus: when you find out Christians are right and your stupid free-thinking.... Kass: The same thing that will happen when you find out that Ojuice is right and the GraecoRoman Gods exist and yours doesn't. Heya JTV. Oh, no. I was very, very careful with my description on here so that both Magus and atheist/agnostic would have a harder time picking at it.

02-25-2003, 10:11 AM	#130
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Magus: The scripture mentioned on Adam - i meant spiritual death but didn't think mentioning that would be any more meaningful than what I said - that was my intented point though. Read your original statement: God is saying when he eats the tree - he will no longer live for eternity ( as in be immortal) - He is saying when you eat from the tree, you bring in the first sin and your body will now age and die. No mention, even hint, of spiritual death there. And while i'll be judged too - Jesus paid for my sins so ill be judged not guilty when i stand before Him. If you didn't understand the point I was making (which, from your response, I don't think you did), then you'd better double-check your "get out of jail free" card. It may not be valid. I'd advise you to read Matthew 7:16-23, for a start, and think about your previous post that I was referring to.

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