echidna

But that depends on your use of the word “survive”. Of course how a rich man survives from day to day as compared to a poor man will be subjectively different. But face them with an executioner’s axe or drowning at sea and I think they will react quite similarly, in fact there will be objective similarities. To me the survival instinct is not so much about living day to day, but more basic, more about our reaction when directly confronted with our own mortality. Surviving day to day one is not under so much pressure, one has the luxury of thought, of course subjectivity comes in. But in true survival, looking at the gun pressed against your forehead, that’s when objective instinct takes over.

But more than that, these instincts flirt in and out of our consciousness & objectively influence our subjective opinions and attitudes. Surely humans are not the only creatures born without objective instincts. And with these influences, pure subjectivity seems inappropriate.

Yes, Lord save us from idealists.

No moral issue is simple. All involve a range of issues and considerations. So when one part is idealised in isolation, little wonder that other considerations will suffer. However where I find the concept of a moral ideal useful (just personally speaking) is that when faced with a moral problem, there is a strong temptation to give up, to simply say “well there’s no right solution so I may as well do X”. Because the fact is almost never is there a perfect solution, but maybe there is a best solution or a least a better solution. By keeping to the concept of a moral ideal (not so much knowledge of that ideal), I can push myself to keep seeking a better solution, to stay open-minded that my solution is not necessarily the best. Otherwise I give up too easy in resignation “this’ll do, who cares ?”

echidna

I think I object to what I perceive as being a growing tide of nihilism, which can stem from moral subjectivity and cultural relativism.

Not that this nihilism or moral vacuum MUST be a consequence of moral subjectivity, just that I think it’s quite possible that just as young people can be badly misled by moral authoritarianism, so too moral subjectivity can be very confusing and bleak as well.

One only needs to scan MFP to see how confused and directionless people can feel about moral subjectivity. Little wonder that some slip through into nihilism, depression and amoral behaviour, hardly a good outcome IMO.

phaedrus

But that depends on your use of the word “survive”. ...snip..... But in true survival, looking at the gun pressed against your forehead, that’s when objective instinct takes over.

Aha, now can you link this particular "survival" of yours to morality??? How does this particular "objective" (sic!) survial instinct affect various moral issues like abortion, vegetarianism and middle east (the ones you mentioned in your first post)? This particular "survival"...does it come into picture in our daily lives? (I am sure most of us dont face events involving gun totting and axe wielding individuals in our everyday moral situations )

Surely humans are not the only creatures born without objective instincts

Did you mean "with" ?

However where I find the concept of a moral ideal useful (just personally speaking) is that when faced with a moral problem, there is a strong temptation to give up, to simply say “well there’s no right solution so I may as well do X”.

Does this moral ideal have to set up by the society you live in or it is your own ideal? When one says morality is akin to evolution it would indicate that as we grow up we encounter the "intersubjective" morality of the world we live in and we have our own "subjective" morality. Since we live in a group we tend to accept or respect the "intersubjective" morality for surviving in the group. If one doesnt like the group's moral framework, all they have to do is go find another group with similar moral fibre or live on their own

By keeping to the concept of a moral ideal (not so much knowledge of that ideal), I can push myself to keep seeking a better solution, to stay open-minded that my solution is not necessarily the best. Otherwise I give up too easy in resignation “this’ll do, who cares ?”

I would rather think that the "pracitical" considerations would shape the solutions...

I think I object to what I perceive as being a growing tide of nihilism, which can stem from moral subjectivity and cultural relativism.

Nihilism is good, it will allow people to start afresh deconstructing the tardy past. (Ofcourse there is always something good in tradition...make a collage using the best of all worlds)

Not that this nihilism or moral vacuum MUST be a consequence of moral subjectivity, just that I think it’s quite possible that just as young people can be badly misled by moral authoritarianism, so too moral subjectivity can be very confusing and bleak as well.

That would be applicable for the weak minded or hearted...people who are strong dont need some divine laws as their raison d'etre rather through existential angst they learn more about their "self" and the absurdity of the world, thereby reinventing themselves which will give them that elusive peace of mind.

One only needs to scan MFP to see how confused and directionless people can feel about moral subjectivity. Little wonder that some slip through into nihilism, depression and amoral behaviour, hardly a good outcome IMO.

As the complexity of the world increases and people are bombarded with shit loads of information which has the tendency to shake their cherished "foundations", the strong will take in the stride and the rest will find "new" religions/cults for resolving their identity crisis.

DRFseven

But are you suggesting that we all agree to pretend that morality is objective to stem the shift to nihilistic thinking? Or are you saying that if we can manage to think that morality is objective, it will actually be objective?