David Mathews

Hello Goliath,

Now you have said something that I can agree with.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Goliath

David Mathews

I'm glad. Now, I hope you realize that the statement that we agree upon applies also to your beliefs. Therefore your non-argument that Christianity is true because a lot of people believe it is....well...just that: a non-argument.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Jayhawker Soule

Good evening, David. Welcome.

sandlewood

Hi David and Welcome,
I agree with you that theists should not normally be obligated to prove their claim. Ideally we have freedom of religion in the US. However, there are a couple of circumstances where I think theists are obligated to prove their claim. One is when theists willingly engage in argument or debate. In that case, a person making a claim is obligated to show supporting evidence. The other case is when theists wish to impose their beliefs and lifestyle on others. If you are going to do that, then I think you need to show me evidence of your claim. For example, I am referring to Faith-Based Initiatives, discrimination against homosexuals, scheduled prayer-sessions in public schools, Christian-based public holidays, Churches being exempt from tax, “In God We Trust” on money, etc.

I haven’t have time to read your web site, but I did quickly go through chapter 12 of your “Questioning Atheism” essay. I think you may have some misconceptions about what atheism is and what atheists think. This board is a good place to discuss that—in fact, it’s one of the purposes of the board I believe.

[ June 25, 2002: Message edited by: sandlewood ]</p>

Autonemesis

The title is:
Looks to me like it is addressed to atheists in general, not a particular atheist.

David Mathews

Hello Kind Bud,

You must understand that there is a context in which that book was written and that context was a discussion occurring directly between myself and another individual who is an atheist.

If my comments do not reflect your character, attitudes, thoughts, words and behavior, the reason for that is because they were not written about you nor were they written for you.

I wrote it for someone else, and I delivered it directly to him.

In addition, I will also say that I don't consider the twelve essays a final answer to the great questions which were under consideration. I am aware of the vastness and complexity of the Universe at all scales, and I am also aware of the six billion other humans who live on this planet, each individual possessing his or her own beliefs which must differ to some degree from my own.

I am not offended by diversity and I am not an enemy of the atheists or even of atheism. I engage in discussions for the purpose of gaining knowledge. The reason why I talk to atheists is because I find them interesting, I find their viewpoint challenging, and I appreciate the questions and demands that they place upon me.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

David Mathews

Hello Goliath,

Please do understand, I did not state that Christianity was true because a majority of people believe in Christianity.

Individuals must choose for their own self whether they believe in Christianity or not. That is the decision an individual must make on his or her own.

I don't make that decision for you, your parents and family don't make it form you, your community doesn't make it for you, nor (for that matter) does God make it for you.

The whole point behind free will is that people have the right to choose to believe or not believe in God, and they also have the choice to follow or not follow God.

You must make those choices for yourself. I am not going to tell you what you must do, should do or will do. I make no demands on you whatsoever.

Sincerely,

David Mathews

Buffman

David: What is the relevance of your point, Buffman?

That was funny. Thank you. (Another question to answer a question.)

I suppose that insane and violent behavior has characterized humanity as a whole since the beginning of time, and that such acts are not limited to Christians, theists or religious people.

I suspect that we could all agree that you "suppose" correctly. The relevance of my thought was to illuminate the differences between fact and fiction. The supernatural and the natural. Testable evidence and faith beliefs. Natural world science and supernatural world spirituality.

David: A Christian, Jew or Moslem is not obligated to prove God's existence.

I agree! No one is "obligated' to prove any claim that they may make...unless they are in a Court of Law, or wish others to believe them. If I claim that I can walk on water, no one is "obligated" to believe me unless I can prove my ability to do what I claim I can do. Likewise, I am not "obligated" to believe anything written in the, so-labeled, sacred texts of the past. You have chosen to believe them based exclusively on faith. I require testable evidence that the claims made there are valid. I prefer to live my life based on fact not faith. I am not "obligated" to do so, nor are you. However, I have "chosen" to do so because I wish to be free of superstition, myths and false prophets. Evidently that is not your choice. It would appear that you have chosen to believe these superstitions and campfire tales of the distant past for your own reasons. That is perfectly fine with me just as long as you, and those of your cult, do not attempt to inflict/impose those beliefs on me. I certainly have no desire, or "obligation," to rob you of your need for the supernatural explanations of the natural world.

That is what I was speaking about. Not only are these people exempt from proving God's existence to an atheist, they are also exempt from proving it to their own self.

(General comment: Not everyone here claims to be an atheist. I have chosen to title myself "A Non-Supernaturalist.") Might I inquire what kinds of things do require proof(testable evidence) in your universe?

Individuals make their own choices about what they believe.

Is there an exact chronological point at which individuals make their own choices? One year old? Ten? Older? Upon what factors do they base these choices? Nature? Nurture? Ignorance? Education? Personal/social experiences? External/internal conditioning? Is there a manner in which they can determine if their beliefs are real or imagined? Perhaps it is as simple as when the individual reaches the stage in life where they can apply a critical thinking process to all the factors to which they have been, are, and will be exposed. But what is the critical thinking process? How does one acquire it? How does one know when they have it? So many wonderful questions that no one is "obligated" to answer in your universe. And the most disturbing factor of them all. What if there currently isn't an answer? Should I make one up? Evidently that is no longer a problem for you.

No one is obligated to answer to anyone else for those choices.

Au contraire! You might wish to frame that statement in a different manner. Perhaps it requires some qualifiers.

It works both ways -- atheists don't have to answer to Christians, and Christians don't answer to atheists. In the final analysis you have to live with yourself, therefore no one is obligated to satisfy the demands of anyone else.

In my particular instance, that is close to accurate. I am a recluse. However, I could not long remain a recluse if I had to grow my own food, weave my own clothes, or do any of the myriad of other things that have benefited me from the advancements of the scientific natural world who asked and found answers to their inquiring minds. Forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth, but you seem quite content with the answers you have found and not motivated to delve any deeper into the wonders of the natural universe. (I will avoid discussing the survival advantages/disadvantages of human socialization.)

Autonemesis

Well, I guess for now I will take your "I am not a crook" denial at face value. Still, it seems rather strange for a person addressing an individual to title his statment "Addressed to Atheists", using the plural. Maybe I should think of your use of the word as similar to "youse" in certain east coast American dialects - sounds plural, but is used in the singular as well as the plural sense, as in "Youse think youse so smart, but youse don't know nothin!"

Well, that's a relief.

I engage in discussion for the purpose of eliminating bad ideas. Doubt is the mother of understanding. I want to show people how to doubt.

The reason I talk to theists about God is because they just won't shut up about it. I assume you meant "I talk to atheists about God because it is..." since without that implied qualifier, it would seem you are challenged about most anything an atheist would speak of.

rainbow walking

David: Individuals must choose for their own self whether they believe in Christianity or not. That is the decision an individual must make on his or her own.

rw: Hello David and welcome. Am I to take it then that you view religious beliefs a choice? And if so, upon what basis are those choices made?

David: I don't make that decision for you, your parents and family don't make it form you, your community doesn't make it for you, nor (for that matter) does God make it for you.

The whole point behind free will is that people have the right to choose to believe or not believe in God, and they also have the choice to follow or not follow God.

You must make those choices for yourself. I am not going to tell you what you must do, should do or will do. I make no demands on you whatsoever.

rw: But you have presented us with an alternative to non-belief in a god or gods. You say that you believe in a particular designation of God. I just wonder what your opinion is of how people come to make these choices?