Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Philosoft · 05-13-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
Bottom line is, human appreciation of natural beauty can be explained much better by supernaturalism than by naturalism. This is so because beauty is not a natural property. So I think this argument does make sense, and deserves a lot more respect than the original post gives it. It's neither very strong nor very weak.

This is quite unsurprising. Anything can be explained better by supernaturalism because a supernatural explanation is not constrained by any sort of natural cause-and-effect. Indeed, on a whim, one can produce a supernatural explanation that's tailor-made because there are no "rules" for explaining things this way. There simply isn't any distinction between a supernatural explanation and an uneducated guess at this point.

HRG · 05-13-2002, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:


This is quite unsurprising. Anything can be explained better by supernaturalism because a supernatural explanation is not constrained by any sort of natural cause-and-effect. Indeed, on a whim, one can produce a supernatural explanation that's tailor-made because there are no "rules" for explaining things this way. There simply isn't any distinction between a supernatural explanation and an uneducated guess at this point.

Depends what you understand by "explanation". It is sometimes said that "what explains everything explains nothing"; IOW, an explanation worth the name should not only explain why we see X, but also why we don't see Y; and this should include actual deductions from more basic principles. Tested against this latter standard, supernatural explanations fail miserably.

IMHO, of course.

Regards,
HRG.

free12thinker · 05-14-2002, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philosoft:


This is quite unsurprising. Anything can be explained better by supernaturalism because a supernatural explanation is not constrained by any sort of natural cause-and-effect. Indeed, on a whim, one can produce a supernatural explanation that's tailor-made because there are no "rules" for explaining things this way. There simply isn't any distinction between a supernatural explanation and an uneducated guess at this point.

What he said.

Jamie_L · 05-14-2002, 04:30 AM

Why should I sipulate to the universe being "beautiful"? The universe is what it is, regardless of how our pattern-seeking brains try to interpret it.

Furthermore, is it really beautiful even by our insignificant standards? Certainly it's awe-inspiring, given its size and the power and detail of its phenomena. But beautiful?

How many people die every day from perfectly natural events: tornadoes, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes. Mass extinctions occurred throughout history. Black holes suck the life out of nearby stars. Supernovae take out entire planetary systems. And lets not forget entropy. Disorder increases all the time. A broken glass will never spontaneously go back together. The whole bloody mess is constantly running down.

Beautiful? Really?

Jamie

WJ · 05-14-2002, 04:38 AM

"I don't see how anyone could look at the world around us and not see that there had to be a Creator behind it all".

I would have to agree! From purely a physics/science perspective, you have come away with a profound appreciation and awestruck wonder why the world is the way it is-its ordered existence, yet unexplained first cause.

In that regard, the world is almost completely rational, yet the beings who inhabit it are 'almost completeley' not.

Walrus

Hans · 05-14-2002, 05:54 AM

Ojuice5001

Quote:

It appears at an early age and is culturally universal; this argues strongly against its being culturally determined.

I would argue the opposite. Much of what we consider beautful or ugly or offensive is culturally determined. For example, many cultures consider the scent of perfume beautiful while the natural scent of our bobies is considered offensive. This backward reaction to scent is not instinctive or universal amung all cultures.

Quote:

Bottom line is, human appreciation of natural beauty can be explained much better by supernaturalism than by naturalism.

There is no universal appreciation for nature. Many who live in large urban areas have no appreciation for nature. Even among those who do appreciate nature, what aspects they appreciate and for what reason, all differs.

Quote:

This is so because beauty is not a natural property.

Beauty is a psychological interpretation of an object or objects, even events and actions can be interpreted by some as beautiful. I fail to see how this or any particular facet of human psychology infers a deity.

MadMordigan · 05-14-2002, 06:30 AM

the natural scent of our bobies

mmm the natural scent of bobies........

WJ · 05-14-2002, 06:34 AM

Hans,(ojuice)!

Leaving a Deity out of the picture for a moment, one has to ask why there exists an appreciation of beauty and nature to begin with? As juice so sussunctly pointed out, it confers little survival advantages.

On the other hand, appreciation for physical beauty viz. man/women relations most certainly has an impact from a 'meaning' perspective. And that perhaps leads to your comments about psychological issues and human consciousness as a sign of a 'supernatural' phenomenon.

The point is that if one can safely suggest that human consciousness follows from nothingness (or if it follows from something other than ex nihilo) regardless, the question still stands. There are no real biological advantages for the maintenance of beauty in the world(?). (Not to mention no advantages in the human ability to compute gravitational forces viz. the ability to dodge falling objects.)

Another way to exlpore this notion would be from the extreams. What if humans understood only destruction as a meaningful pursuit in how we viewed the world?

Most of those simple statements about nature result in the question, why. Do you have any clues? Why does our psychology dictate the need for some sense of beauty in the world?

Walrus

Hans · 05-14-2002, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadMordigan:
the natural scent of our bobies

mmm the natural scent of bobies........

Indeed!!!!

Hans · 05-14-2002, 07:40 AM

WJ

Quote:

Why does our psychology dictate the need for some sense of beauty in the world?

If true, beats me!

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05-14-2002, 04:30 AM	#14
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Why should I sipulate to the universe being "beautiful"? The universe is what it is, regardless of how our pattern-seeking brains try to interpret it. Furthermore, is it really beautiful even by our insignificant standards? Certainly it's awe-inspiring, given its size and the power and detail of its phenomena. But beautiful? How many people die every day from perfectly natural events: tornadoes, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes. Mass extinctions occurred throughout history. Black holes suck the life out of nearby stars. Supernovae take out entire planetary systems. And lets not forget entropy. Disorder increases all the time. A broken glass will never spontaneously go back together. The whole bloody mess is constantly running down. Beautiful? Really? Jamie

05-14-2002, 04:38 AM	#15
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	"I don't see how anyone could look at the world around us and not see that there had to be a Creator behind it all". I would have to agree! From purely a physics/science perspective, you have come away with a profound appreciation and awestruck wonder why the world is the way it is-its ordered existence, yet unexplained first cause. In that regard, the world is almost completely rational, yet the beings who inhabit it are 'almost completeley' not. Walrus

05-14-2002, 06:30 AM	#17
MadMordigan Beloved Deceased Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 2,704	the natural scent of our bobies mmm the natural scent of bobies........

05-14-2002, 06:34 AM	#18
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Hans,(ojuice)! Leaving a Deity out of the picture for a moment, one has to ask why there exists an appreciation of beauty and nature to begin with? As juice so sussunctly pointed out, it confers little survival advantages. On the other hand, appreciation for physical beauty viz. man/women relations most certainly has an impact from a 'meaning' perspective. And that perhaps leads to your comments about psychological issues and human consciousness as a sign of a 'supernatural' phenomenon. The point is that if one can safely suggest that human consciousness follows from nothingness (or if it follows from something other than ex nihilo) regardless, the question still stands. There are no real biological advantages for the maintenance of beauty in the world(?). (Not to mention no advantages in the human ability to compute gravitational forces viz. the ability to dodge falling objects.) Another way to exlpore this notion would be from the extreams. What if humans understood only destruction as a meaningful pursuit in how we viewed the world? Most of those simple statements about nature result in the question, why. Do you have any clues? Why does our psychology dictate the need for some sense of beauty in the world? Walrus

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