Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arrowman · 10-15-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
[QB... Is your laptop living, breathing organism as well? Strangely enough, mine isn't and I can't recharge the battery as well. [/qb]

I knew you'd say that. I must be psychic.

Of course. But you still do not explain the "principle" which supports the transfer of "energy" (other than heat, but I doubt that it's heat you are referring to) from one living creature to another via touch.

Quote:

... The word "Principle" is based on Common Sense...

No, the word "principle" needs to be based on something demonstrable and repeatable. "Common Sense" in this context is just another word for "belief".

Quote:

... when applied the word "Living, breathing organism", any other living breathing organism ...

I have no idea what this means so I'll leave it.

Quote:

...lack of common sense wouldn't understand this principle and call it unsubstantaited belief....

No, a critical thinker sees that this belief has no foundation and identifies it correctly as unsubstantiated.

Quote:

Bottom line, get common sense BEFORE questioning a principle of any kind.

Bottom line - get some evidence, please, before claiming that your beliefs are based on a "principle".

10-15-2002, 09:42 PM

"I knew you'd say that. I must be psychic. "

My reply : No, you're not. You just use a bit common sense that the person who came out with this analog in the first place.

"Of course. But you still do not explain the "principle" which supports the transfer of "energy" (other than heat, but I doubt that it's heat you are referring to) from one living creature to another via touch."

My reply : You know anything about Yin/Yang principles? No? Go and study it, or try to find information about it on the Net.

"No, the word "principle" needs to be based on something demonstrable and repeatable. "Common Sense" in this context is just another word for "belief"."

My reply : Funny, principles behind "transfering" of energy is demonstrated and repeated by Eastern Qiqong practitioners, Martials Artists, and Eastern traditional medicine practitioners successfully for generations ... IF that is not enough to make it into a principle, then I have no need to demonstrate anything.

"No, a critical thinker sees that this belief has no foundation and identifies it correctly as unsubstantiated."

My reply : A critical thinkers also assume negative and positive ions exist inside a battery and that power flows from and to it and to a lightbulb, YET they never see it and couldn't measure a positive ion separately from a negative ion.
Is the workings behind a battery also "belief" or principle? If principle, show me facts that negative and positive ions exist.

"Bottom line - get some evidence, please, before claiming that your beliefs are based on a "principle". "

My reply : Learn to understand an evidence when summited to a thinker is just as important as finding one. You will not learn anything if you assume everything is based on what you know, such person is shouldn't consider himself a critical thinker since there is NOTHING critical about his thinking.

Feather · 10-16-2002, 12:54 PM

The "energy" your body "creates" is actually just heat from chemical reactions (when some molecules in your body break down others).

Heat is just electromagnetic radiation or thermal motion.

It's a matter of physics. So, Seraphim, by your "reasoning," then wossname should indeed be able to charge his laptop's battery merely by concentrating hard enough. Because the "energy" a living organism possesses is no different than the energy anything else possesses.

galiel · 10-16-2002, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
[QB Funny, principles behind "transfering" of energy is demonstrated and repeated by Eastern Qiqong practitioners, Martials Artists, and Eastern traditional medicine practitioners successfully for generations ... IF that is not enough to make it into a principle, then I have no need to demonstrate anything.[/QB]

ROFLOL!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHHAAH!

"If I am wrong, then I don't even need to prove anything any more." I love it. You MUST be just pretend.

10-16-2002, 06:09 PM

"It's a matter of physics. So, Seraphim, by your "reasoning," then wossname should indeed be able to charge his laptop's battery merely by concentrating hard enough. Because the "energy" a living organism possesses is no different than the energy anything else possesses. "

My reply : I see it as matter of lack of common sense.
Four simple questions here :

1. Are you a living, breathing organism? Yes or NO.
2. Is your laptop living, breathing organism? Yes or No.
3. Do your body produce energy? Yes or No.
4. Do your laptop produce independant energy? Yes or No?

If ALL the about four questions/conditions above is YES, then wossname should be able to recharge his laptop's battery.

[ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

Godless Dave · 10-17-2002, 11:00 AM

You can charge your laptop's battery with energy from your body. What you need is something that will convert kinetic energy to 120V AC electricity. The Ontario Science Center has these stationary bicycles that power lights and a TV when you ride them. You'd need a setup like that.

When you massage someone you're also transferring energy, but not in the way your instructor meant. You're doing work with your hands which exerts pressure on the recipient's muscles. The calories in the energy you're burning are transferred (with some loss) to kinetic energy on the recipient's muscles. Energy is a concept in physics, it's not magic.

What she had you do with rubbing your hands together was essentially a parlor trick. I vaguely remember my tai-chi instructor having us do something similar. We rubbed our hands together and I could feel something ball-shaped repelling my hands. But even at the time I knew the sensation had something to do with the muscles and nerves in my hands, not the space between them.

Shadowy Man · 10-17-2002, 11:07 AM

They should stop using the word "energy" if they don't mean energy. The word energy has a very specific meaning. If they want to use the word energy for something being transferred, other than heat, then they should cough up an energy transfer mechanism, experiments to show how and when energy is transferred, loss rates, etc. If they don't want to do that then they should use the word "ki" or "chi" and leave it at that. Or just make up a word and use that.

DarkDruid · 10-17-2002, 11:56 AM

Thanks for your feedback, y'all. It's greatly appreciated.

Part of the reason I was so perturbed by all this newager stuff was for the same reason I'm always perturbed about religious people in general.

Isn't it good enough to say, "When you rub someone's back, it feels good, and they will feel better throughout the day?" Why do they have to make up some energy mumbo-jumbo to justify it?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Arrowman · 10-17-2002, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seraphim:
<strong>My reply : I see it as matter of lack of common sense.</strong>

Hehe. When people who believe in mystical forces like Yin/Yang, Chi etc, start a post with the mention of "common sense" you get the feeling that what follows is going to be anything but....

OK, I'll play...

Quote:

Four simple questions here :
1. Are you a living, breathing organism? Yes or NO.

Yes.

Quote:

2. Is your laptop living, breathing organism? Yes or No.

No.

Quote:

3. Do your body produce energy? Yes or No.

No - well, not unless you count radiant heat, but I suspect that's not what you're looking for here.

If you believe the human body produces energy in any form other than radiant heat, perhaps you could demonstrate. And I'm sorry, "I believe in Chi" doesn't count as demonstration. Neither does naming other people who share that belief.

Quote:

4. Do your laptop produce independant energy? Yes or No?

Not sure why the word "independent" has suddenly been introduced, or what it means. Then again, we're dealing with a fairly woo-woo loose definition of "energy" so I suppose "independent" can't make this whole scenario any looser.

Anyway - the answer is - Yes. Just as for the human body. Radiant heat.

Quote:

If ALL the about four questions/conditions above is YES, then wossname should be able to recharge his laptop's battery.[/QB]

Of course I can't. Laptops don't have Chi. Or Yin, or Yang. Or charkas. Or auras. Then again, neither do humans.

wossname aka Arrowman

10-17-2002, 11:55 PM

Four simple questions here :
1. Are you a living, breathing organism? Yes or NO.

Answer : Yes.

2. Is your laptop living, breathing organism? Yes or No.

Answer : No.

3. Do your body produce energy? Yes or No.

Answer : No - well, not unless you count radiant heat, but I suspect that's not what you're looking for here.

If you believe the human body produces energy in any form other than radiant heat, perhaps you could demonstrate. And I'm sorry, "I believe in Chi" doesn't count as demonstration. Neither does naming other people who share that belief.

My reply : Odd? I believe human produce energy in form of burning of food - energy called ATP and used by the body's mechanicm. It is still consider as Independant because the body could be sustain it's functionality for a certain amount of time without the replenshing a new supply or by burning its stored fat.

4. Do your laptop produce independant energy? Yes or No?

Not sure why the word "independent" has suddenly been introduced, or what it means. Then again, we're dealing with a fairly woo-woo loose definition of "energy" so I suppose "independent" can't make this whole scenario any looser.

Anyway - the answer is - Yes. Just as for the human body. Radiant heat.

My reply : Radiant heat - when power is turn on. Absent of heat without power. Existence of such energy is limited and dependant on existence of electricity - thus cannot be called Independant.

"Of course I can't. Laptops don't have Chi. Or Yin, or Yang. Or charkas. Or auras. Then again, neither do humans."

My reply : How do you know there is no such "things" in a human body?

Answer : Yes, No, No, Yes. Thus the laptop cannot be recharged no matter what you or it has or don't have.

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10-15-2002, 09:42 PM	#12
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"I knew you'd say that. I must be psychic. " My reply : No, you're not. You just use a bit common sense that the person who came out with this analog in the first place. "Of course. But you still do not explain the "principle" which supports the transfer of "energy" (other than heat, but I doubt that it's heat you are referring to) from one living creature to another via touch." My reply : You know anything about Yin/Yang principles? No? Go and study it, or try to find information about it on the Net. "No, the word "principle" needs to be based on something demonstrable and repeatable. "Common Sense" in this context is just another word for "belief"." My reply : Funny, principles behind "transfering" of energy is demonstrated and repeated by Eastern Qiqong practitioners, Martials Artists, and Eastern traditional medicine practitioners successfully for generations ... IF that is not enough to make it into a principle, then I have no need to demonstrate anything. "No, a critical thinker sees that this belief has no foundation and identifies it correctly as unsubstantiated." My reply : A critical thinkers also assume negative and positive ions exist inside a battery and that power flows from and to it and to a lightbulb, YET they never see it and couldn't measure a positive ion separately from a negative ion. Is the workings behind a battery also "belief" or principle? If principle, show me facts that negative and positive ions exist. "Bottom line - get some evidence, please, before claiming that your beliefs are based on a "principle". " My reply : Learn to understand an evidence when summited to a thinker is just as important as finding one. You will not learn anything if you assume everything is based on what you know, such person is shouldn't consider himself a critical thinker since there is NOTHING critical about his thinking.

10-16-2002, 12:54 PM	#13
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	The "energy" your body "creates" is actually just heat from chemical reactions (when some molecules in your body break down others). Heat is just electromagnetic radiation or thermal motion. It's a matter of physics. So, Seraphim, by your "reasoning," then wossname should indeed be able to charge his laptop's battery merely by concentrating hard enough. Because the "energy" a living organism possesses is no different than the energy anything else possesses.

10-16-2002, 06:09 PM	#15
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	"It's a matter of physics. So, Seraphim, by your "reasoning," then wossname should indeed be able to charge his laptop's battery merely by concentrating hard enough. Because the "energy" a living organism possesses is no different than the energy anything else possesses. " My reply : I see it as matter of lack of common sense. Four simple questions here : 1. Are you a living, breathing organism? Yes or NO. 2. Is your laptop living, breathing organism? Yes or No. 3. Do your body produce energy? Yes or No. 4. Do your laptop produce independant energy? Yes or No? If ALL the about four questions/conditions above is YES, then wossname should be able to recharge his laptop's battery. [ October 16, 2002: Message edited by: Seraphim ]</p>

10-17-2002, 11:00 AM	#16
Godless Dave Contributor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: With 10,000 lakes who needs a coast? Posts: 10,762	You can charge your laptop's battery with energy from your body. What you need is something that will convert kinetic energy to 120V AC electricity. The Ontario Science Center has these stationary bicycles that power lights and a TV when you ride them. You'd need a setup like that. When you massage someone you're also transferring energy, but not in the way your instructor meant. You're doing work with your hands which exerts pressure on the recipient's muscles. The calories in the energy you're burning are transferred (with some loss) to kinetic energy on the recipient's muscles. Energy is a concept in physics, it's not magic. What she had you do with rubbing your hands together was essentially a parlor trick. I vaguely remember my tai-chi instructor having us do something similar. We rubbed our hands together and I could feel something ball-shaped repelling my hands. But even at the time I knew the sensation had something to do with the muscles and nerves in my hands, not the space between them.

10-17-2002, 11:07 AM	#17
Shadowy Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Shadowy Planet Posts: 7,585	They should stop using the word "energy" if they don't mean energy. The word energy has a very specific meaning. If they want to use the word energy for something being transferred, other than heat, then they should cough up an energy transfer mechanism, experiments to show how and when energy is transferred, loss rates, etc. If they don't want to do that then they should use the word "ki" or "chi" and leave it at that. Or just make up a word and use that.

10-17-2002, 11:56 AM	#18
DarkDruid Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 131	Thanks for your feedback, y'all. It's greatly appreciated. Part of the reason I was so perturbed by all this newager stuff was for the same reason I'm always perturbed about religious people in general. Isn't it good enough to say, "When you rub someone's back, it feels good, and they will feel better throughout the day?" Why do they have to make up some energy mumbo-jumbo to justify it? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

10-17-2002, 11:55 PM	#20
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Four simple questions here : 1. Are you a living, breathing organism? Yes or NO. Answer : Yes. 2. Is your laptop living, breathing organism? Yes or No. Answer : No. 3. Do your body produce energy? Yes or No. Answer : No - well, not unless you count radiant heat, but I suspect that's not what you're looking for here. If you believe the human body produces energy in any form other than radiant heat, perhaps you could demonstrate. And I'm sorry, "I believe in Chi" doesn't count as demonstration. Neither does naming other people who share that belief. My reply : Odd? I believe human produce energy in form of burning of food - energy called ATP and used by the body's mechanicm. It is still consider as Independant because the body could be sustain it's functionality for a certain amount of time without the replenshing a new supply or by burning its stored fat. 4. Do your laptop produce independant energy? Yes or No? Not sure why the word "independent" has suddenly been introduced, or what it means. Then again, we're dealing with a fairly woo-woo loose definition of "energy" so I suppose "independent" can't make this whole scenario any looser. Anyway - the answer is - Yes. Just as for the human body. Radiant heat. My reply : Radiant heat - when power is turn on. Absent of heat without power. Existence of such energy is limited and dependant on existence of electricity - thus cannot be called Independant. "Of course I can't. Laptops don't have Chi. Or Yin, or Yang. Or charkas. Or auras. Then again, neither do humans." My reply : How do you know there is no such "things" in a human body? Answer : Yes, No, No, Yes. Thus the laptop cannot be recharged no matter what you or it has or don't have.

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