General Zod

No, I have never wished for a God since "converting". In fact, even as a Christian, the concept of existing forever horrified me and I planned to ask God to obliterate me after going to Heaven.

echidna

Yes. I’ll often think of myself as being a wannabe-theist.

You only need to see the daily atrocity and injustice, the deliberate hurt which people inflict on each other, and I want this to be objectively wrong. I want there to be a universal balancing mechanism, something to punish the wrongdoers and help the wronged.

Fortunately I consider the ontological nature of our existence to be quite sufficiently clouded as to leave this a possibility, albeit small, although not in this life …

Jesus Tap-Dancin' Christ

Yeah, I did use to think, damn, it would be nice. But God never will operate in that manner--ever. If he did, then the world would not be as fucked up as it is. Think of it this way:

God make universe, for whatever reason. He doesn't really need one, and it isn't terribly important. God also decides that he will not intervene save only to give each set of intelligent creatures arising some basic morals to live on--then forever sit and watch as they apply or do not apply morality. To act in any manner other than this is to deny his creation the free will of any sort--thus, aside from the original parameters set upon intelligent life (i.e., what is wrong to do and not to do), he will not change the experiment. If he were to do so, he would invalidate any results obtained.

Of course, this model assumes that God is NOT omniscient (and therefore not omnipotent), for if he was, then he would already know the EXACT results beforehand--making him basically an asshole bastard by setting up billions upon billions to suffer and die in filth and misery so that a few hundred million can live quite well and then go to heaven after they die comfortably, while the masses must then suffer in hell. Or perhaps the reverse is the case: that the millions who live well now go to hell, and those who live in the rubbish go to heaven. Either way, he's still tormenting people for eternity, and temporarily, for little more than shits and giggles. Take the deistic model. Much less of a bastard to look at.

ju'iblex

absolutely not. How much simpler would life be if we were happy ignorant children of Jesus, happily stumbling over our own feet while we, myopic in our optimism, believe that those who are oppressed and impoverished will be alright, theyll be rewarded in the next life.
yes it would be far easier, if not a happier existence. but its only happy because its blind to the problems of the world, fueled on by the rewards of a false "eternal paradise" and ignoring how people are in need now.

ignorance is bliss. but reality has fortunately slapped some of us in the face. yes, turning to dust isnt the most pleasant fate, but its better than living a lie.

echidna

Now isn't all this just a little ironic ?

Automaton

Sartre: Same here.

chekmate

Once upon a time, I fell upon some hard times, a few deaths in the family, and I felt real bad. Then I started trying to go to church every Sunday, and my Mom was all for it. But every time I prayed, and every time I went to church, there was always that little thought in the back of my head analyzing everything. I couldn't even bring myself to believe, even though I desperatly wanted to, because because my mind kept going back to all the things that made me reject religion in the first place.

What's the Point?
I couldn't believe, even if I tried (because I have)

HelenM

Zuri, since you were replying to me - I agree with what you said except I'd say Christians do ask God to intervene, to change things in their lives, to do miracles.

But - so Christians believe - since God is a person God doesn't necessarily choose to answer those prayers. When God being perfect and good doesn't answer them the person who prayed continues to look to God for strength to endure whatever it is, etc. Part of believing in the God they believe in is recognizing that God may say 'no' to prayer requests and having to accept that.

I think we are saying the same aren't we?

love
Helen

Jamie_L

I often wish there was an afterlife. I am terrified of my own death to the point that I can't really allow myself to think seriously about it without having a minor panic attack.

As for God, however, I don't wish for him much. More often I wish the world was a better place - more fair, less arbitrary - doesn't matter whether or not its because of some God.

I feel that things would be harder if I believed in God but the world was the same. Then I'd have to constantly wonder why God made such a f*&#ed up place, and if I'm being punished, ignored, or used as a pawn in some "mysterious way". I'd worry about fate, and whether bad things happen to me in patterns that will continue.

As it is, I can take solace in knowing there aren't any super-powerful beings pulling my strings, checking on whether I'm naughty or nice, and punishing me at their whim. It'a good to be free.

Jamie

Bait

Hi Harumi and all,
Ok, I'm a theist, but I'm not going to try to "convert" any of you, but perhaps I can explain some misconceptions, and present what Christianity is really about. What I'm about to write is pure theology, purely based on faith, so if that offends you, please be warned, and do not go any further. I do not wish to offend anyone with my faith.

What I see perhaps most is the argument of "if there is God, why, or how can he be so cruel to allow all of the pain and suffering? Also, why or how could he of commanded the total destuction of the many societies that he did?

From this Christians point of view:

Hard questions, I admit. But there are answers. As to the first question, God did not, and does not, want mankind to suffer as we do. First off, one has to remember that God created first his angels, his servants, but gave them a free will, meaning they can choose right from wrong. He also made them immortal. His most powerful and beautiful angel named Lucifer decided that he wanted to, and thought he was powerful enough, to take over, put himself above God. He fought against God and lost.
God then created man, in his own image, also giving him free will to choose, but had not yet allowed him to be immortal (though it was available). Man choose to rebel against God, and align himself with God's fallen Angel Lucifer when Adam & Eve disobeyed God's command. This became like a sickness to man, and all except three men caught the desease. These three were Enoch, Elijah, and Jesus (who we believe is God himself, come down in the person of man). Enoch and Elijah never died, but were taken straight to heaven.

Lucifer, being angry that God has kicked him out of heaven, is on (around/in) the earth, is trying to hurt God by hurting the ones God loves most...man. Since God's law says the penalty for the treason (rebelling against) against God is death, the law (originally made for his angels)came into play against man as well. So God came down in the form of a man, and paid that price so we could be free of that punishment. The price had to be paid by an innocent, one who had not caught the desease of sin...otherwise the debt would have been owed by him too.
An analogy...
If you are in jail, and someone comes to pay your bail, you still have a choice whether to accept that bail and be free, or reject that bail and remain in jail. If you are in jail, you cannot pay your own bail,someone else has to, because you do not have the means to (you're incarcerated). Someone has to that is not himself incarcerated. So it is with the payment of God. You have a choice whether to accept it...or not. I cannot force you, nor can anyone else, nor will God. Choice is an absolute gift God has given us, would you rather be robots?

Why is he taking so long? Simple, so both the angels and man can see the consequences of rebelling against man. The Bible teaches that it will end, I think soon. And Lucifer has already been defeated, he's just trying to see how much destruction he can do before sentencing.

My grandfather caught me smoking one day, brought me out and told me to smoke the biggest, nastiest cigar I've ever seen, and drink a couple of shots of whiskey to boot. I was about 10. I got VERY sick, for that moment, but it taught me not to smoke. Same principal. Sometimes experience is the best teacher.

Who's really causing the suffering? Lucifer - to hurt those God loves, not God.

Why else do we suffer? Because we do not follow Gods instructions, his laws, and thereby allow ourselves to follow the directions of Lucifer, who wants to hurt us. Lucifer is a lier, and he tells us that these destuctive things are fun, are desirable, etc. Actually they are hurtful, dangerous.

Why would God have his people kill the societies mentioned in the Bible? Because they were rebelling against God to such an extent, that there could be no more hope for them. They were totally in Lucifers camp, totally anti-God, vile and hurtful. So they were cleansed from the earth, removed, and the land given to those who did follow God. If a cancerous lump is found in a womans breast...do not the doctors remove it (either the lump or the breast) in order to save the person's life?

I personally believe God does answer prayer...every time you sincerely pray. He may sometimes say no if it is not in your best interest, or if it does not follow the plan he has for you, but he always answers, and always provides what is needed.

God is actually a loving God, but make no mistake, he can be a fearsome God of war when needs be. He's also absolute justice. I believe there is a spiritual war going on right now, with many casualties. Lucifer is trying to destroy mankind, God's pride and joy.

Finally, heaven is not the same boring thing everyday, as someone suggested. Imagine the ability to visit anywhere in the Universe, anytime you want. If we have so much stimulation here, can you not imagine the amount you can have in a place with no limits? But there, there is no pain and suffering...because there everyone, and everything follows Gods laws, as they are intended to be.

As to the religion thing...heaven is not in what you eat and drink. Rather, it is a relationship, a family. People by their own traditions tend to make Christianity harder than it is intended I think. God wants you to be free, not enslaved. What you wear, what you eat and drink, what you possess, nor is it anything that you do, all these means nothing to God. His laws are actually summed up in two...love God, and love and treat everyone else like you want to be loved and treated. You can go to heaven, it only takes you accepting the gift he presents, and to start to believe. He does the rest.

I don't write this to debate you, nor am I putting you down for being an atheist, agnostic, whatever. Those are your choices, and I respect them. I'm also not writing this to prove or really defend Christianity either. I fully know that some of you can come up with a hundred reasons why the concept of God does not make sense, and so I won't argue that point. I just saw that some of you were in error as to what Christians believe, and what Christianity is about, and I'm just setting the record straight.
Bests to all,
Ron






[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Bait ]</p>