YHWHtruth

Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." KJV

Try, "I form light and create darkness."NRSV

Max

mark9950

Form the light?

Light comes from photons and how could this God character form the light?

Javaman

Or
Isaiah 45:7 "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.' (YLT)

Aren't they both in that passage?

Paul Baxter

Just throwing out my opinion as a xian and (very) amature NT scholar. As has been mentioned already, the NT does talk considerably about the wrath of God. Examples, should you want to look, are found in II Thess, Romans ch1, and throughout the book of Revelation. Also, the concepts of God Himself being merciful and compassionate are found much more prominently in the OT than in the NT.

Just to comment on the nature of this (briefly), the NT writers, being Israelites, were steeped in the OT literature. This is so uncontroversial, that I don't even think the folks here will dispute it So they still believed in the same God, and in fact state explicitly that they don't believe that God had changed His character, just His mode or manner of revealing Himself (see the first ch of Hebrews).

The charge of OT=wrathful, bad God, NT=happy, good God goes back (at least) to the heretic Marcion, and the idea is still pervasive enough that I often hear it brought up and preached against in my church.

FWIW

YHWHtruth

(Isaiah 45:7) Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

Everything in creation—from light to darkness—and everything in history—from peace to calamity—is subject to Jehovah’s control. Just as he creates the light of day and the darkness of night, so he will make peace for Israel and calamity for Babylon

Rightly, Jehovah brought evil or calamity upon Adam for his disobedience. Hence, in the Scriptures, Jehovah is referred to as the Creator of evil or calamity. (Isa 45:7; compare KJ.) His enforcing of the penalty for sin, namely, death, has proved to be an evil, or a calamity, for mankind. So, then, evil is not always synonymous with wrongdoing. Examples of evils or calamities created by Jehovah are the Flood of Noah’s day and the Ten Plagues visited upon Egypt. But these evils were not wrongs. Rather, the rightful administration of justice against wrongdoers was involved in both cases. However, at times Jehovah, in his mercy, has refrained from bringing the intended calamity or evil in execution of his righteous judgment because of the repentance on the part of those concerned. (Jon 3:10) Additionally, in having a warning given, Jehovah has undeservedly provided opportunities for the practicers of bad to change their course and thus to keep living.—Eze 33:11.

Again the, “I FORM the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.” (Isa. 45:7, AS) This reference to Jehovah’s creating darkness and evil has been gleefully seized upon by skeptics, atheists and other critics of the Bible to support their position that it is not the inspired Word of God but merely a collection of ancient writings of a primitive people. However, their prejudice, doubtless begotten by a lurking suspicion that their position is not as strong as they would like it to be, has blinded them to a reasonable consideration of this text as well as of the rest of the Bible. Instead of following such a course, let us heed the counsel of the Bible’s Author, “Come now, and let us reason together,” and see just what light reason and the Bible itself throw on the meaning of this scripture.—Isa. 1:18.

How does Jehovah form light and create darkness? He forms light by causing his Word to be understood through the fulfillment of its prophecies. “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and light unto my path.” “The path of the righteous is as the dawning light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.” Such light, however, is not for the wicked. “Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.” To the wicked Jehovah sends darkness. “God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.” Such was the case in the ninth plague upon ancient Egypt. The Egyptians were enveloped with a darkness that could be felt, whereas the Israelites had light in their dwellings.—Ex. 10:21-23.

The Scriptures speak of Jehovah as the God of peace: “The God who gives peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.” (Rom. 16:20, NW) That text, however, also implies that Jehovah is the God of war, in that he will crush his enemies. How can he be both the God of peace and the God of war? In that there is a proper time and occasion for peace and for war. “For everything there is an appointed time; and there is a time for every purpose under the heavens: a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.”—Eccl. 3:1, 8, AT.

When creatures go contrary to his will then it becomes necessary for Jehovah to make war upon them in his own time and way. Then he becomes the God of war: “Jehovah strong and mighty, Jehovah mighty in battle. Who is this King of glory? Jehovah of hosts, he is the King of glory.” (Ps. 24:8, 10, AS; Jas. 5:4, NW) As such he fought for his people Israel in times past, and he will again show himself as the God of war at the battle of Armageddon, where he will completely destroy his enemies for the vindication of his supremacy and the deliverance of his people.—2_Chron. 20:15; Rev. 16:14, 16.

In what sense can it be said that Jehovah creates evil? Certainly not in the sense of his creating wickedness or moral badness, for it is utterly impossible for him to do anything wrong. “It is impossible for God to lie.” We are assured, “Good and upright is Jehovah: therefore will he instruct sinners in the way.” Addressing him the psalmist stated: “Righteousness and justice are the foundation of thy throne: lovingkindness and truth go before thy face.” And Moses sang of this theme: “For I will proclaim the name of Jehovah: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice: a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he.”—Deut. 32:3, 4; Ps. 25:8; 89:14, AS; Heb. 6:18, NW.

Yes, Jehovah is very jealous for his name as a God of justice. That is why when Abraham, in connection with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, asked, “Shall not the judge of the whole earth himself act justly?” Jehovah was willing to grant Abraham’s plea if but ten righteous persons were to be found in those cities. (Gen. 18:20-33, AT) Throughout the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, Jehovah appeals to our reason and explains his reasons for executing his judgments so that we may have unshaken confidence in his justice. Particularly is this apparent in the prophecies of Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel.—Isa. 1:2-20; 24:1-5; Jer. 16:10-13; 22:1-9; Ezek. 6:1-10; 22:1-16.

Jehovah, however, can be said to create evil, because the term “evil” can be used to designate not only “moral badness or offense; wrongdoing; wickedness”, but also “anything impairing happiness or welfare or depriving of good; injury; disaster”. (Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary) In view of the foregoing scriptures showing that Jehovah is just and righteous we must conclude that the evil that he creates must be that of calamity and disaster.

The two uses of this term are to be seen in the following prophecy, wherein Jehovah told that he would bring evil or calamity upon Israel because of their evil or wicked course. Moses said: “For I know that after my death you will be sure to act perniciously, and swerve from the way that I appointed you; and in after days evil will befall you, because you will be doing what is evil in the sight of the LORD.” Note also the same in the following, which records a fulfillment of this prophecy. “Then the Israelites did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, by serving the Baals and forsaking the LORD. Then ._._. the hand of the LORD was against them for evil, as the LORD had declared.”—Deut. 31:29; Judg. 2:11, 14, 15, AT.

Thus we see that there is a great difference between evil and wrongdoing. All wrong or wrongdoing is evil, but not all evil is wrong. An act of injustice is always wrong and it usually results in working evil or injury to another. On the other hand, the administration of justice is always right. Even though it may bring evil upon the one against whom it is enforced, that does not mean that the administration of justice is wrong. Rather, it shows how God does create evil.

Max

beastmaster

Pyrrho, I agree that Matthew 5 standing alone is unambiguous.

My point is that, like with most things in Xnty, it is hard to draw any definitive conclusions as to what Christ stood for or Xnty stands for, including on the question of the Law.

Despite Matthew 5, there are plenty of antinomian tendencies dating back to the earliest Xnty, including, among other things, the departure from circumcision, the kosher diet, and animal sacrifice. If the oral tradition concerning the teachings of Jesus and the beliefs of the earliest Xns held that the Mosaic Law was inviolable, it is hard to believe these practices would have been discarded, even for the sake of assimilating the Gentiles.

I have no idea if Jesus "knew what he was talking about," since everything we are told about Jesus is second- or third-hand. I have little doubt, however, that the various authors of the NT did not have a consistent agenda as to what words to put in Jesus's mouth.

Theophilus, I do not claim to definitively "know" anything, nor to have formed any opinion based on an uncritical acceptance of any experts, or based on faith for that matter.

Rather, I have independently formed an inference based on various evidence, including a first-hand reading of the Gospels and other parts of the NT, that "The various visions we have of Jesus are designed to advance 1st and 2nd Century Xn apologetics, and we therefore end up with a conflicting and conflicted Jesus character, including on the question of antinomianism."

Because this inference is based on evidence rather than faith, it is open to reassessment based on any contradictory evidence you might offer or any superior explanatory inference with which you may convince me.

However, it seems to me quite incontestible that the authors of the NT had an abiding interest in drafting their narratives of Jesus with an eye toward refuting their critics, from both within and outside the ranks of Xnty. Feel free to surprise me.

Grumpy

Or, for that matter, God could've conjured up a better way of reforming the rough characters he dealt with, rather than indulging them in slavery, torture, misogyny, etc.

Kind of like the argument that when the Earth is described as a "circle," it should be read as "sphere," because there is no separate concept of sphere in ancient Hebrew. Couldn't God have provided such a concept, as it comes in handy for billiards & such?

CX

What are you trying to say? You each have quoted only part of the verse.

Apikorus

Isaiah 45:7 =

יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורע רע אני יהוה עשה כל אלה

= "I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I Yahweh do all these (things)."

(Thanks to Peter Kirby for the Hebrew encoding.)

Magus55

How about, create the Photons by which light comes from?