Freethought & Rationalism Archive

7thangel · 03-23-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by keyser_soze
I stand by what I said. If your god believes that allowing humans to be tortured, raped, and killed, for me to acquire wisdom, he has NO claim to any throne. I am a lowly human, but I damned sure can come up with a better system than that.

Magic wand*BAM* , omnisicient!

Me: Everyone is Healed! (benny hinn style of course)
*BAM* the universe is calm and happy.

See how easy that is? No complicated schemes calculating time and genetics so that I can get a Dr. Evil version of save the humans....I just wave my magic wand. Isn't that much easier? No killing or suffering of billions. No destroyed planet, nothing. Everyone, elect me your next imaginary god, and I promise to bring a new form of government, a democratic, a free, a truly enlightened age of man! I promise, NO NEW TAXES(or blood sacrifices, hey I'm a decent joe....I don't need that crap).

Please bear with me, but again, you are showing ignorance of the power of God. You want God to act irrational when, as an atheist, you seek for something rational. And if you agreed that God is irrational, then what are you whining about if he becomes irrational? If you have understood what is meant by omniscient, then why should you teach Him what to do?

DECENCY! With your four letter magic word, you even dared convince me of decency? Better even than me in decency? And worst, you convince that you are better than God? Well, you are just ignorant of the godhead so I am trying to explain whatever you are misunderstanding. And the more you speak, the more I notice your lack of understanding, even of understanding your arguments.

Angrillori · 03-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Alrighty. There's a question of what would it take to get someone to worship God, and how willing God should be to perform said action.

The good news is, the bible's god has already shown us what a diety needs to do to be believed, and what should cause a people to turn away from a diety.

Stangely enough, there was a time when people had turned away from god to other gods. So, god's prophet 'called the other gods out' so to speak. Read:

Quote:

1 Kings 18:18-40

"I have not made trouble for Israel," Elijah replied.(to Ahab who had just called Elijah a troubler) "But you and your father's family have. You have abandoned the LORD's commands and have followed the Baals.

Interesting....following another god, not believing in god...seems all the Gideon apologetics need to find another word track since this time god IS making signs for the unbelievers...

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Now summon the people from all over Israel to meet me on Mount Carmel. And bring the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah, who eat at Jezebel's table."
So Ahab sent word throughout all Israel and assembled the prophets on Mount Carmel. Elijah went before the people and said, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him."

In our day, if god is god then follow him, if there is no god, don't. Seems fair enough.

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But the people said nothing.
Then Elijah said to them, "I am the only one of the LORD's prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets.

Well seems the tables have turned eh? Seems the god-ites outnumber the atheist prophets eh?

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Get two bulls for us. Let them choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD . The god who answers by fire-he is God."

But, since we atheists don't believe in god, instead of prayers for fire, we get gasoline and matches. Whoever gets fire wins right? You get your god to make it, I get mine.

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Then all the people said, "What you say is good."
Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire." So they took the bull given them and prepared it.
Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. "O Baal, answer us!" they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.
At noon Elijah began to taunt them. "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened."

Would Elijah be an atheist today? Surely god seems to be deep in thought, busy, traveling, or sleeping!

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So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

No answer huh? No miracle huh? Is that the biblical test for the non-existance of a particular diety? Then we've got it easy!

Quote:

Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the LORD , which was in ruins. Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the LORD had come, saying, "Your name shall be Israel." With the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD , and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs of seed. He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, "Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood."
"Do it again," he said, and they did it again.
"Do it a third time," he ordered, and they did it the third time. The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.
At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: "O LORD , God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. Answer me, O LORD , answer me, so these people will know that you, O LORD , are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again."

Well here's our prayer to convert the atheists! Any one of our god-ites care to try it! I've got a big backyard, come by, I'll even have snacks available!

Quote:

Then the fire of the LORD fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.
When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, "The LORD -he is God! The LORD -he is God!"
Then Elijah commanded them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Don't let anyone get away!" They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

And, if my gasoline fire starts before your god-fire, I promise I won't even round you up and kill you!

Anyways, that's the biblical test for a diety's existance. But don't take my word for it, don't take ANYONE's word for it. Read the bible yourself!

7thangel · 03-23-2003, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Angrillori
Alrighty. There's a question of what would it take to get someone to worship God, and how willing God should be to perform said action.

The good news is, the bible's god has already shown us what a diety needs to do to be believed, and what should cause a people to turn away from a diety.

Stangely enough, there was a time when people had turned away from god to other gods. So, god's prophet 'called the other gods out' so to speak. Read:

Interesting....following another god, not believing in god...seems all the Gideon apologetics need to find another word track since this time god IS making signs for the unbelievers...

In our day, if god is god then follow him, if there is no god, don't. Seems fair enough.

Well seems the tables have turned eh? Seems the god-ites outnumber the atheist prophets eh?

But, since we atheists don't believe in god, instead of prayers for fire, we get gasoline and matches. Whoever gets fire wins right? You get your god to make it, I get mine.

Would Elijah be an atheist today? Surely god seems to be deep in thought, busy, traveling, or sleeping!

No answer huh? No miracle huh? Is that the biblical test for the non-existance of a particular diety? Then we've got it easy!

Well here's our prayer to convert the atheists! Any one of our god-ites care to try it! I've got a big backyard, come by, I'll even have snacks available!

And, if my gasoline fire starts before your god-fire, I promise I won't even round you up and kill you!

Anyways, that's the biblical test for a diety's existance. But don't take my word for it, don't take ANYONE's word for it. Read the bible yourself!

Actually, the story even supports me. The story shows that "ignorance" of the godhead will still make you unworthy. It is not worth accepting baloo's challenge because he lack knowledge of the godhead.

BTW, I am willing to set up a challenge to all atheists here.

HRG · 03-24-2003, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
Please bear with me, but again, you are showing ignorance of the power of God. You want God to act irrational when, as an atheist, you seek for something rational.

Why is healing all pain, forgiving all sin etc. by a simple exercise of omnipotence an irrational act ? It is the most direct way to a target, with the least collateral damage.

I would say that this makes it the most rational way!

Regards,
HRG.

7thangel · 03-24-2003, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by HRG
Why is healing all pain, forgiving all sin etc. by a simple exercise of omnipotence an irrational act ? It is the most direct way to a target, with the least collateral damage.

I would say that this makes it the most rational way!

Regards,
HRG.

For sure, all pain will be healed, and sins be forgiven, in the resurrection. And again, as I always state in my belief, such promises were only to be given to the chosen while the losts will cease to exist. And my belief also is that Evil existed for the chosen to have wisdom. So it is irrational for God to disallow the existence of evil, that leads man to have concept of good and evil, and thus lead them to have wisdom. IOW, if God will disallow evil, we will be denied of wisdom.

If I will focus only to the scenario of your question, I will surely still have a lot of questions that needed answers. I would like to share this Bible verses with you:

Ecclesiastes 3

1. To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2. A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3. A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4. A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5. A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6. A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7. A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8. A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
9. What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10. I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
11. He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
12. I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.
13. And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.
14. I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Proverbs 2:5. Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.

Romans 1:20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

To put it briefly, there is a time for good and evil to happen, and the very end purpose for it is for us to know the knowledge of Godhead. So please let us not deal with the specifics of every actions.

Angrillori · 03-24-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
Actually, the story even supports me. The story shows that "ignorance" of the godhead will still make you unworthy. It is not worth accepting baloo's challenge because he lack knowledge of the godhead.

What does that mean? How are these people who "abandoned the Lord's commands" and "followed Baals" (v. 18)
more in understanding of the Godhead than anyone else here?

The bible explicitly states these folks turned away from the Lord, and the Lord was willing to prove to them en masse that he existed with cool fireworks, at the same time challenging their other god to show up.

Read it! Simply saying it supports you doesn't make it so! Contrary tio your belief, your sophistry doesn't trump the clear and explicit word of god. (And if it does, prove it to me, and I'll worship you!)

Quote:

BTW, I am willing to set up a challenge to all atheists here.

Same as Elijah? Following the same rules? If so, I'm there. Bring cameras!

Baloo · 03-24-2003, 12:33 PM

I really need to keep a written list of threads I'm involved in - apologies to all, esp xian, for my absense. And, with that, another apology - I won't have a chance to read through and reply until tomorrow (Tues.) evening. I am looking forward to further discourse along these lines though.

Baloo · 03-26-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by xian
well don't get me wrong, Baloo. ON some levels I admire that you have indeed left an "open door" for God. Though I am wondering if you have concluded already that this same God you left a door open to, is also the same God you have concluded is a tyrant. Is this true or false?

It doesn't bode well for our discussion if you presume to know my thoughts - namely, to assume the conclusions I've reached in regards to the attributes of various deities. The God in which my mother believes, for instance, is not at all a cruel God. The God in which many fundamentalists believe, IMO, is. When I was a liberal Christian (which I'd transitioned into from my earlier fundamental views), I believed that love was the essense of God, and "God's cruelty" was simply a shortcoming of our perceptions of his nature. I still believe that a [extremely] liberal reading of the Bible can compatible with such a deity. It is quite likely, were I called back to "the flock", it would be those attributes I assigned to the deity. However, presumably, my attempts at open-mindedness in coming to believe in a god's existence would extend to an open-mindedness in deciding which attributes best described the god.

Quote:

If you have concluded that this God is cruel due to the problem of evil, then does that not make this whole "open door" a front to the real issue- that the door is indeed closed?

Please watch the mind-reading.

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I am not trying to accuse you of anything, you seem to be genuine and fascinating at the least.

It doesn't feel like an accusation, but it really is annoying when people try to state your conclusions for you.

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I have talked with many, MANY atheists over the years, and have never encountered something like this. Indeed, it caught me off guard a bit.

Well, I'd hope from here on out you'll think twice before you ask atheists "what would it take..." You might not get an answer you want to hear.

Baloo · 03-26-2003, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Curt Epithet
00000000000000000000000000000001 ?

2 matches.

keyser_soze · 03-26-2003, 08:07 AM

You never did say whether I could have another guess.

[keyser soze, moral atheist taking over the world one at a time]

03-24-2003, 12:33 PM	#187
Baloo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 417	DOH! I really need to keep a written list of threads I'm involved in - apologies to all, esp xian, for my absense. And, with that, another apology - I won't have a chance to read through and reply until tomorrow (Tues.) evening. I am looking forward to further discourse along these lines though.

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03-26-2003, 08:07 AM	#190
keyser_soze Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: god's judge (pariah) Posts: 1,281	You never did say whether I could have another guess. [keyser soze, moral atheist taking over the world one at a time]

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